Tim Pommer
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T I think Jay was looking for a fun discussion which is lacking around here these days, bro and you kind of squashed it…
ZING
So is the idea that they’re trying to snatch a fish you are catching or what? I don’t get how they apparently have no boat shyness. Or are they just like cats that can’t resist one of those feather toys?
The idea is that you’re keeping the bait moving. This isn’t specific to fly fishing, it was started by the gear guys. Turning the bait around in circles mimics a flight reaction of the bait and usually the fish pounces on it.
As for not being scared of the boat, these fish aren’t scared of anything. They are the apex predator. If they want something, nothing will stop them. Imagine the juiced up meat head at your local fitness center having a brain the size of a pee. Rational thought doesn’t enter into the equation.
These fish will steal fish off your stringer, they’ll attack your oars, try to take down full grown ducks, attack boat props…
I’ve had a couple pursuits last over 2 minutes, before the chasing fish finally bit. I’ve fumbled a lot of figure 8′s before my technique improved. Still, most fish will veer off if they don’t bite after the first turn.
I’ve had several fish appear to veer off only to go deep and wait under the boat. Keep stirring the pot!!! They’ll come from below.
I had all but given up on this fish after she chased twice, followed a figure 8 for several turns, and seemed to have disappeared. A few turns later she came from under the boat and pounced.
I’d say the majority of my fish come two or three strips off the bank. Especially in dirty water. Clear water seems to bring more follows as Travis said. But who knows, you probably have the same amount of follows in dirty water but just never saw them.
How many of your fish end up being caught while doing that maneuver?
Not that you asked me but I’d say I get about 25-40% of my fish on a figure 8. It depends on the body of water more than anything.
And a spey rod is not a good tool for those fish. You can do it if you are dead set on it but what Travis (and what most other guys) is doing above would never work with a big rod. Some guys throw a switch rod but they are still just over head casting with a little help from the bottom hand at times. It’s almost impossible to lift those flies off the water after placing an anchor.
All but the most dedicated fly angler, do not have the time, money or experience to correctly match the two.
I was fortunate enough to try virtually every and any line I wanted for any rod and fishing scenario imaginable. The funny thing was, after playing with different combinations, the best lines for the job were the obvious ones. Trout line for trout. Tarpon for tarpon. Nymph for nymphing. I think it is the exception that a line doesn’t match today’s rods. Keeping it simple is the key. Only very specific situations require some extra playing.
The answer is probably both, although A tends to be the norm.
Fly lines are made to a weight spec since it’s the mass/distribution of mass of the line that drives all the performance characteristics. The reference point for weight is the AFTMA standard but lines obviously sway from the standard quite a bit depending on the application – like the Ambush line where the 8wt Ambush is heavier than the AFTMA 10wt. This works for big flies and single hand spey techniques but this line would be the absolute worst option for throwing midges.
I really have no experience with what the rod manufacturers are doing aside from some conversations with a few friends in the industry. I believe they generally do the same thing – use the AFTMA standard as a reference and tweak things from there. Obviously, we all know of rods that are labeled as one size but really perform like another.
There are two ways of looking at this problem – one way is to keep everything to the standard and assume the user/angler is savvy enough to know to go up or down in size depending on the application. The other way is assume the angler/user does not know and as the manufacturer, purposely over/under size the item per the application. After helping out the SA customer service group for about 5 years, I tend to lean more toward the fact that the angler is not savvy enough and masking the product is the better approach. Unfortunately, neither of the options are good in the end for the consumer.
A little off subject, but I’ve always wondered about line weights and switch and spey rods. Line weights are standard (at least in theory) based on the weight of the first 30 feet of line. Rod weights are a subjective opinion of the designer as to what weight line a given rod should optimally cast (ignoring for the moment attempts to objectively measure rod weights such as CCS). The stated “rod weight” of spey rods seems to underestimate the line that the rod should actually be used with. So why not just rate them correctly to start with?
Good question Bob – it is confusing. There actually is a spey line standard just as there is a single hand standard. Aside from shooting heads (skagit/scandi), spey lines are usually indicated by their weight or range of weight – 9wt, 9/10wt… Shooting heads do have a standard as well (or rather a recommendation) but they are usually never followed and this makes things confusing. Hence why most shooting lines are designated in grains – which is NOT a better method and actually leads to more questions in the end. Unfortunately, skagit and scandi heads account for most of the spey lines sold, especially in the US, so most people group the problems of spey designations with these lines.
I wrote this a few years ago to help clear things up (http://www.scientificanglers.com/insider/2011/12/scientific-anglers-spey-guidelines). Not sure if it ever helped. Simon at Rio has done several pieces like this as well. Like all things fishing, time on the water will answer the questions. Digging around on the interwebs will only make your head spin.
The problem is multifaceted – rod manufacturers and line manufacturers are not in sink, rod manufacturers are making several rods to cover similar situations, line manufacturers are making several lines to cover similar situations, there are too many ‘experts’ out there claiming that even the slightest differences in grain windows makes or breaks the cast (which is total BS), line companies are providing a larger grain ranges with smaller increments to address all the said experts…the list goes on.
The good news is that rod manufacturers are starting to recommend lines on their websites. They are really the ones with the power to lessen the confusion and I think things are starting to shift in the right direction.
I helped design this line with Wulff. It is a great shooting line for overhead casting but you only need minimal false casts and it’s best for streamers or big flies – comparable to the SA Titan or Rio Outbound Short but better at single hand spey stuff. It is good for big water and really has no place with anything less than an 8wt in my opinion.
It’s trying to be both a short spey line and an overhead shooting line so the weight designation is goofy – a little light for spey stuff and too heavy for overhead. For instance – I use a 7wt Ambush on my 8wt smallmouth setup but use a 9wt Ambush on my 8wt switch rod and a 12wt Ambush on my 8wt two-hander. Confused? Yeah, it’s a bit of a head spin. Their website does a decent job at laying it out.
I stopped there on my way to New Zealand in ’02. We had plenty of trout gear but no saltwater gear with us so I can’t help much aside from this – do your homework and find an outfitter. Based on what I saw, Fiji is not a DIY fishing location. The majority of anglers there fish only to feed their families. Asking to go fly fish will get you nothing but weird looks from the locals.