anonymous
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In answer to Mike’s last comment:
That is fine if that is your angling preference where you live and you can talk your G&F agency into protecting all those species. I’m speaking primarily of the tailwater system here in Arkansas because that is what I know best. Trout are the legally mitigated species now in the tailwater and what does best in the environment in the way of producing some trophy fishing potential. However,
1) Stocked trout don’t generally produce the truly large trophy fish. I’ve talked to a number of state agency biologists on this over the years. They seem to mostly agree that the wild fish are the ones you want in your rivers for trophy production and you can only produce them by and large in the river system. They don’t do well in hatcheries. Most of these wild fish are decendants from the stocking of browns via Vibert boxes back in the 70s.
2) Wild fish have a genetic advantage and plus they are conditioned to avoid coming to a commotion to feed unlike stocked trout. The one time that their “guard is let down” is
3) during the spawn. As Phil pointed out, Arkansas Game and Fish Commission closed the spawning area below Bull Shoals dam because anglers were catching these spawning trophies again and again and many of them turned up dead in spring of 1996 because of major fungus infections. If anglers can’t regulate and discipline themselves, then we need regulations to protect these fish when they are most vulnerable.I’ve never been able to understand what is so much fun or sporting about trying to catch fish that are busy about trying to reproduce and have let down their natural defenses to the point that they are ridiculously easy to catch in numbers. That’s not really my argument though. Why put in jeopardy the best fish in the river system and any natural offspring that they might otherwise produce? I would think we would want our rivers crawling with the most number of wild trophy fish a river system could sustain. I think we could manage the White at least for better trophy fishing by some angler education to not fish to these brutes when they congregate in the shoals.
When these fish move back down the river system, there are not as many of them per mile as you might think. Most of these fish head upriver during the spawn. AGFC at one time estimated the brown trout population in the catch and release area at Bull Shoals dam increases 500% during November through January. And these fish can easily move 25 miles upstream in two days given favorable water conditions.
Let’s say for the sake of argument, there are 100 browns over 20″ in the upper 8 miles of Bull Shoals tailwater normally. During the spawn that increases to 500 concentrated mostly in the upper mile. After the spawn when they move back downstream, even if you distributed all those fish evenly over 92 miles of tailwater, that’s only less than 5.5 fish per mile (browns over 20″). All I am saying is when the fish concentrate and are easy to catch, the impact on those wild fish from angling pressure can be enormous, and in fact was detrimental here in the mid 90s.
If this was Alaska, it would be a different story where you had a record 6 million sockeye coming up the Kenai summer before last and they all die after the event.
But don’t think there is no impact from catching the browns during the spawn because you can simply restock. Most of the small stocked browns probably wind up in poaching angler’s creels, heron bellys or in the truly big brown trout.
I don’t know your river Mike, but do you have wild fish stocks that have developed over the years? Those are the fish I would really want to protect.
Forgive me if I’m rambling, as you know I think this is an important conservation issue. If I am missing the point(s) of the posts, I’d be happy to curtail my part of the discussion on it. I just think trout get the short shrift on southern tailwaters, because “they ain’t natural!” But perhaps some of my comments apply to other trout waters where the spawn is fished.
This is what happens when it too cold to be out fishing :-).
ScottPS Zach. If we have situation like on the Little Red where there is a bottleneck of 16-17 wild browns, then by all means allow harvesting some, but that is not the situation on most of the White River tailwaters with browns. I am interested in seeing some data on the browns in the White if the biologists ever get that info collected over a large representative sampling and over a longer timeframe than some of their previous data. I am afraid they are too swamped to be doing the data collection that needs done. I don’t think anyone really has a handle on fish per mile and species and sizes. Again about 1996 or so, the data I was told was 94% of the stocked trout were caught out within about 1-2 weeks on Bull Shoals tailwater. I think some of the more recent tagging studies pretty much has confirmed that again in some areas of the river.
Thanks for the recommendation. I don’t have any Prosek books, but I have his Trout of North America poster on my office wall. He’s truely gifted.
Just another thought…you know if you look at the “evolutionary” development of trout in our own north American drainages, all kinds of fish species as well as trout species have turned up in new drainages where they did not exist before.
I was just recently reading something on how before the last period of glaciation in North Dakota, all the rivers there ran northeast into the Hudson Bay drainage. After the glaciers left, the rivers ran into the newly cutt and present day Missouri River drainage. I am sure that messed with some fish species. Furthermore, a lot of the cutthroats in the western US drainages periodically wound up in some surprising places, like California, because of upheaval events.
Well, who is to say dams and manmade structures are not part of the evolution of our waters and fish species. Because trout want to survive, who knows what changes they may develop to adapt to dam breaks and catastrophes over the years? Who knows what adaptations yellowstone cutts may evolve because they are threatened?
Of course, these arguments work both ways, so it comes down to value judgments by anglers on what they want and what G&F can deliver. But once we’ve got it, let’s make it work as naturally as possible. Trout are trout, and they seek to survive, thrive and reproduce. Let’s let ’em.
Very true Carter. Good point. And I think I probably have misread Zach’s comments as I know he is not supporting abandoning the brown trout fisheries we have. Sorry Zach if I implied that.
Trying to get at the underlying philosophy of why we think importing a species called salmo trutta into a non-native area was and is a good thing. Should we do it in areas inhabited by threatened native trout like Yellowstone? Probably not. Should we do it if trout can coexist with a native northern hog sucker and chilled out smallmouth. By all means :). And if you do, then protect them. Let them be fruitful and multiply.
Much of out attitudes are very culturally oriented. I have friends in England that just cannot understand why we have an open fishing season during the trout spawns. The are so engrained with Walton ethics that it is incomprehensible to them that we even want to fish to trout during the spawn.
The local attitude here that says trout are not native to Arkansas waters, and therefore they should be treated merely as a meat market opportunity, needs to be better informed.
Sincerely and respectfully,
Scottand (2) Brown Trout are not native to the United States….I’m very glad to have them, and I’ll work to improve their environments and encourage catch and release, but ultimately if every last one of them were thrown onto the bank, genetically we’d just be back where we started.
Zach:
Respectfully, I think your opinion ignores two things:
1) We have “forever” altered the environment below the dams to a cold water one. Native fish simply will not thrive in it any longer unless you knock down a lot of concrete. That’s why we have a legally (not just socially) mitigated trout fishery. The protection of our trout fisheries is a legal responsibility.
2) Trout in general and browns in particular have an intrinsic value to many anglers. As a sport fish for instance, like Lee Wulff has said. However, I personally don’t catch and release because it is a managment philosophy. I catch and release because it is a philosophy of appreciation. I love trout. They try to live and reproduce and survive like any other species and are a wonderful species to fish for.
Therefore, since they are here to stay in the long foreseeable future, have “legal status as citizens” ::), have proved they can survive and grow as large as in their native ranges (perhaps larger), and have value as a sport fish, it only makes the most sense to protect them, their habitat and give them the ability to naturally reproduce and sustain themselves as smallmouth once did.
I tire of the argument that since they are not native, we can fish ’em out and it wouldn’t make any difference in the long run.
Thinking about the can o’worms I’ve opened.
Hey Zach.
Have you checked out B&H Photo out of NY City?http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=getpage.jsp&A=getpage&Q=SuperStore.jsp
I have bought a number of Canon lenses, filters etc. They have a great selection of Nikons as well.
Over the years, my experiences with this company have been good.
Just a thought.
Good luck.
JPquote author=ZachMatthews ]Hey guys –
I am going to purchase a D200 body in the next three weeks, hopefully used. My editor has decided its cheaper to throw me a bone and give me enough to buy this camera so he can quit paying other people for the backdrop images to my stories (the D70 won’t go two pages). My next photo-heavy feature will run in the next issue, from my trip to Brazil, and as you’ll see, we had to use an image of less than two pages and add black space, which isn’t ideal.
So, I am in the market. Can anyone point me to a good deal on a used or refurbished D200 body or sell me one they aren’t using?
Thanks,
Zach[/quote]This is what I have in mind. Any guess as to what material feather is used in the fly? Apparently, this is Great Lakes pattern.
Thanks,
ScottMoosedog:
Suggest you look at the lens lineup of both Canon and Nikon and read some reviews. Both manufacturers have strengths and weaknesses although they are pretty even. Since quality lenses will generally outlast camera bodies, go with that in mind. I went with Canon because of their macro lens and image stabilization lineup and “faster” autofocus. My current main camera is a Canon 30D, and it is sweet.
Also check with B&H and KEH for used equipment. You can often find older generation camera bodies for next to nothing. I know you want digital, but the Canon Elan 7 body is now under $300 new and makes a great cheap backup film body.
Thanks Zach. This is the new boat I finished in August.
The Walmart SA rods are very good blanks. So are some of the Martin rods. Zebco and SA have both donated a bunch of these rods to my son’s scout troop and some of the area school fly fishing clubs. They make a fine entry level rod and backup rod. The older graphite technology such as is in an IM6 blank is durable for knock around rods and they cast pretty good too. Orvis clearwater rods are great for the same reason. On the other hand, I had a first time fly fishing customer show up with new Walmart Shakespeare combo kit. The pressed on handle came off of the reel before he even got to use it. I’d recommend folks going the economy route buy the rod only and then a Pflueger Medalist reel and a decent line and backing.
What some of the more expensive rods offer are either super fast or finesse tapers that cast like a dream. On the White River, a finesse rod is very important when you hook up a large fish on 6x. I have customers that come with TFO 6 weights, and I usually cringe when I see one because they will be popping average size fish off left and right. The tips are too stiff, although they cast a lot of line nicely. The faster the rod, the smaller the weight rod you need for finesse fishing.
It is amazing, however, like Mike pointed out, how much marketing affects our perception of value.
Had to post this photo. It makes me laugh everytime. Some customers just have all the toys.
I’ve been blessed with a lot of good equipment over the years, but like everybody, there was a time I had nothing, and there will be a time when I have nothing again.
Scott
I’ve played around with them quite a bit for Erie steelhead and have found them to really not be worth the effort.
