Strobes, Radio Slaves, on a Budget
- This topic has 19 replies, 8 voices, and was last updated Apr 30, 2009 at 10:40 pm by
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I have been reading a lot on Strobist.com and also the book Minimalist Lighting. This has made me very interested in lighting and aquiring multiple strobes. The book mentions using ebay slaves, which you can pick up pretty cheap. It also mentions using SB24 -28’s or Vivtar 285HV strobes as realtively cheap options. I have several questions about all of this.
1. What is a reliable and low cost brand of ebay radio slave currently offered? Does it matter? Do they require your flash to have a PC sync socket? I have seen some that are 2 or 4 channel and some that are 16 channel. Some are more expensive and aparently only use a hotshoe mount??
2. What are good quality/high functionality/low cost strobes? I keep hearing the Nikon SB28 and the vivtar 285HV. I ran across some Sunpak 383 Supers today….are they any good – do they offer enough control or would it be better to go with the SB 28 at twice the price.
3. I am thinking of going with either a 580EXII or 430 EXII as my main speedlight, so as to have latest and greatest ETTL-II and all custom functions on my 40D (when used alone on the camera’s hot shoe). Then, combine with one or two cheaper flashes in manual mode for interesting off camera creative lighting effects. Will the ebay radio slaves work with all of these flash units at the same time?
4. I currently have a Canon 380EX flash (thinking of selling to offset purchase of 580/430EXII), but it doesn’t have a manual mode, and now that I have the 40D, I can’t use rear curtain sync with it (which I could before with my 10D >:( ). I assume it is pretty worthless to me in a multiple flash situation since it has no manual ability. Hence the need to upgrade to a 430EXII or 580EXII, since other flashes can’t be used on my Canon on camera hot shoe, or can but don’t retain full flash functions and custom options – like my 380 EX).
5. Anything I am leaving out here or not thinking about?
John, Great questions.
1. Check out Pocket Wizards. I own five of the 4 channel transcievers (not the new fangled multi channel/task bell & whistle units) and they fire perfectly indoors or out. All you need with them is a hot shoe or pc sync on your camera AND a pc synch on each flash for them to work. You can even use a splitter (thanks Radio Shack) and fire two flashes at once if they’re side by side (think umbrella).
2. Any strobe will work as long as the have an external PC sync socket and a way to incrementally adjust output. Sunpack and Vivitar are good. Downside is post market/off brand multi flash set-ups don’t usually work in conjunction with ETTL-II, i-TTL etc. automation. Also, you might have issues with light color when you mix brands, but that’s not a really big deal. Just get a good flash meter and set the strobes on manual.
3. Don’t know much about Canon flash stuff but my Nikon’s with a built-in flash will wirelessly fire up to ten external Speedlights if they’re all set up correctly (and indoors). I can even set power and compensation remotely, in up to three groups, right from the back of my D300 or D-80. However, as mentioned above, using any other strobe not in tune with the Nikon system will screw up the i-TTL function. I assume it’s the same with Canon. That’s where setting manual on the camera and flashes then using an incident meter (Minolta Flash Meter IV) on the subject is where I usually end up.
4-5. An incident meter is a must IMHO. Plus think about getting several strobe/umbrella brackets and some light stands. My buddy Cor uses gorrilla-pod type tripods outdoors to hold up his strobes (great idea Mr. K) Also, go to a stage works shop or a camera store and pick up a lighting gel swatch pack. Many colors and frosty diffusion to choose and at around 1″x3″ they fit nicely over most flash units and are free.
Hope this helps and good luck.
Sorry guys, I’m just going to say this –
Strobist sucks.
www.dsaphoto.com
A picture is thousand words that takes less than a second while a thousand words is a picture that takes a month.
Yes David, I agree that large powerful strobe units are easier and better in many ways like that Elichrome unit you linked to which looks very sweet. I use Dynalites for in the studio and a nifty 1200ws Broncolor Mobilite batt. pack for outdoor power as well. For paid work. However, John asked about camera flashes on a budget therefore I assume he’s asking so he can take cool fish shots and other IA related small stuff where Speedlights really shine. Not to take cover shots of models etc.
Plus I’d hate to cram an Elinchrome, stand, and soft box in my vest, go fishing and take a swim. :'(
I haven’t looked at Strobist in quite a while but I agree that is the results can look pretty homespun with lots of tinkering. Especially for big stuff. That said, the fundamentals are sound and can be used on a larger scale down the road.
Just sayin’ 😎
I agree, pro flash gear is a bitch for fishing shots and on camera is the only way to go.
I only say all that because I’ve had people explain to me they don’t need to learn proper lighting for photographic work because the saw on Strobist how they could do it with a bunch of little on cameras so much easier..
In fact, IMHO nothing could be further from the truth.
Digital cameras have made studio flash 10 times easier than it used to be..
www.dsaphoto.com
A picture is thousand words that takes less than a second while a thousand words is a picture that takes a month.
My thoughts are that I will not have the budget for studio gear, nor a studio. For what I think I want to do, it would be mostly outdoors, traveling light, and trying to add some creative flash. Now granted, I am also interested in trying to learn the techniques and create interesting portraits, or small obejcts which I could do indoors, etc. with what I can afford for not a lot of money.
I read through Joe McNalley’s book, and it was very interesting. It seemed that he uses what he needs at the time: sometimes that was a full grip truck of gear, but other times it was just a speedlight or two and some gels and snoots etc. So, this is what has kind of gotten me to thinking and interested in learning as much about lighting as I can with tools I may have access too. Speed lights, bounce cards/reflectors, natural light, diffusion (bed sheet/white shower curtain/window light), etc.
Honestly, I am learning, and especialy the flash lighting thing is all pretty new to me. Studio lighting is still over my head, but I am learning.
Much of what I am reading on Strobist and the book Minimalist Lighting, is all about getting the flash off camera – just using strobes and light stands (and some umbrellas and soft boxes if you have the money)to do it.
Good discussion though. Can you maybe expand on the differences/advantages in quality of light you are talking about with the studio eqipment, David? Obviously, it makes sense that studio lighting is going to give better results, but the how/why of it I am still a little fuzzy on. And of course for some places, as you already mentioned, it is not practical to drag out all that heavy gear.
So, that is where I am coming from, and the basis for my questions.
It’s all about grunt John, the on-camera units don’t have much and by the time you add proper diffusion to soften the hard light they produce, you end up making all sorts of compromises to do the job.
Proper flash can’t compete on budget or portability, but has much more power and much better light shaping options.
If you want to shoot as a pro, you might not be able to avoid getting this stuff in the long run and would be better off getting started early and learning to use it before getting tangled up in all that strobist stuff.(here in OZ I saw a used Ranger kit with 2 heads, battery and two stands for about the same price as 3 good on-camera flashes – the battery is 1100 ws or about the same as 10 on-camera flashes in power)
If the budget is really tight and you want great shots I would recommend spending on light shaping for ambient light before getting into multiple on-camera flash.
A couple round reflectors and a good scrim would be a great place to start and when used properly will lunch on-camera flash for image quality and is still quite portable
www.dsaphoto.com
A picture is thousand words that takes less than a second while a thousand words is a picture that takes a month.
Will, I think mine is more the rant – your post at least puts it into context.. ;D
www.dsaphoto.com
A picture is thousand words that takes less than a second while a thousand words is a picture that takes a month.
There is no substitute for power and that is what Broncolor, Elinchrom, and Profoto have to offer as well as a lot of versatility. Strobist is aimed at hobbyist and amatuer or maybe the person that is trying to monetize their hobby. MacNalley’s book The Hot Shoe Diaries which is all about small portable flash photography. He does some great stuff but, he’s paid by Nikon to endorse and promote and sell their gear though so you know where his goat is tied!
If its candid photography the small flashes are ok that is what they were designed for. Its hard to get a decent F stop with the small units if you use any kind of light modifier unless you run you asa up. They are fun to play around with but they are limited.Hi John I m new to this as well and have found some traps which leaves you with some money going down the drain ………….try this site for good strobist info ….http://www.zarias.com/ ….have a look at the tutorials etc He has just done a one light DVD which goes over simple and inexpensive gear and the pluses and minuses of both ….like how a 1600 Alien Bee with power pack can give you f16 as opposed to 8x580ex’s to do the same thing powerwise (this is a good price comparison only) ..then a light comparison when he wants to shoot at f2 and dials down a speedlight to 1/16th which he can’t do with the mono….
so to try to answer some of you Q’s from a hack ….the speedlight is cheap but has to be modified to get some half decent light
Al, I don’t want to burst your mates bubble, but shooting wide open is no problem with the big lighting gear – it’s just a matter of what you’re running it through. 😉
f3.5 – the flash is about 30 feet away and on about 1/3 power, it would have been easy to back it off another couple of stops with some spun or by backing it up further.
f2.8 – flash is about 12 feet away – again, dropping another stop would have been no problem.
(both subjects are facing away from the light – the first is sun behind, though on a grey morning, and the second is in a car par and the subject is fully lit with flash.)
www.dsaphoto.com
A picture is thousand words that takes less than a second while a thousand words is a picture that takes a month.
From the DVD he was in a pretty tight basement studio looked 10ft across at best …….gee that guy looks like me ……. 😉 just kidding ………
Well guys, you have all given me much to think about. Thank you for taking the time to break it down for me. Multiple artifical light sources is all new to me. So far, all I have had to work with is a 380EX speedlight on camera, Stofen omnibounce flash diffuser, and homemade bounce reflector panel.
It is good to know that if I want to try to do the professsional route in the future, I should aim my gear choices towards that now.
Honestly, I thought I was learning good info from the strobist site, and the books I was reading also seemed to present it such that multiple speed lights were just fine. Glad I posed these questions so y’all could weigh in, and hopefully save me some grief and cash.
Right now, I would have to clasify myself in the hobby/amateur catagory, but in the last year or so I have tried to step out and try to really take it seriously, and see if I could sell any of my work, get published, etc. In the process, I have become more interested in lots of areas of photography, even portraiture. This in turn, has led me to start studying lighting more in depth, (and particularly artificial).
Unfortunately, where I am right now, I am having to take things slowly due to limited budget and learn what I can on my own and with the help of others. I just don’t have the big bucks to drop on photography seminars, and expensive gear all at once. I hope I can build up over time, and see where the journey takes me and what doors open.
Whatever happens, I want to make the best images I can with whatever resources I have at my disposal, and I want to continue to learne and improve.
For now, after reading your reponses, it sounds like a good off camera flash chord, one updated primary speedlight (580EXII) with manual control, Stofen omnibounce flash diffuser – which I am already using, and natural light shaping equipment is the way to go. Then if/when I am able/need to get into multiple artifical lighting sources, get a pro setup with one or two lights that David mentioned?
This leads me to asking, what does your typical pro lighting setup consist of (if this isn’t top secret info 😉 ?
Good plan John..
The Elinchrom kit that Al Mac B has is a good starting point for lighting, because it has lots of room for expansion later, but will do most of what you need to get started and shoot basic stuff.
There’s lots of kits around that come with 2 or 3 mono blocks and a range of light shapers and stands – some even have carry bags.
Price wise, the Elichrom kits (as an example) cost about 1.5x what a 580EX flash doesAnother way in is second hand gear – there’s a lot of it around at the moment and even if you just get one mono block you could still be on the path to building a good kit.
You should be able to get a good one for around half to 1 x 580 EX.Next up is battery lighting –
This is more expensive but opens up a huge range of possibilities because you can work almost anywhere.
I would have batteries over mains power if I had to chose one or the other.
Elinchrom make the Rangers – and these are the reason I switched from Profoto and Broncolor.
All three brands are the best you can get in lighting, but the Rangers cost much less, have much better batteries, and are faster in recycle time.
One Ranger pack and 2 heads as a kit costs about the same as 4 580EX’s, but you would have to budget for some light shaping on top of that.
The kit’s come with 2 small diffused brollys that are brilliant, but limited in look – they have huge spread for their size and are very handy for lighting big rooms.
One of Elichroms cheap big softboxes costs less than a 580EX.
The Rangers are 1100 WS and there’s the new Quadra packs that are 600WS, though I haven’t got mine yet and can’t tell you much about them.About brands –
Elichrom is the cheaper end of the really good lighting gear – it costs a lot less then Bron, but IMHO has the best indirect softboxes you can get and is very good value for money.
A light shaper like their Octa Light is the best there is (again, IMHO) and worth the price of admission alone.Broncolor makes great floor packs and is the highest quality – they make some light shapers that cost as much as cars, and the stuff is very well made & reliable.
It’s all very expensive, though there is the odd thing around second hand that’s not far off the planet price wise.Profoto is a little less money than Bron, though is still fairly pricey.
The stuff is as tough as you can get and VERY reliable – that’s why you see it in so many pro hire places.
They make some very cool, very small floor packs (mains power) and there top end big floor packs have serious power and always punch well above their weight for light vs. WS.
Their light shapers are good, but not as good as Bron or Elinchrom.
One exception is the 5 foot round softbox – it’s a great light for outdoor shots and I used mine about 90% of the time.
The battery pack they make – the 7B – is a bit of a drag to keep the battery in condition and it costs twice what the Elincrhom does, so it’s not good value IMHO.There’s a lot of Chinese stuff around now as well, and some is very cheap – I don’t know much about it myself though.
I have always stuck with big brands for photo gear because of the back-up you get and the range of gear they make.The prices I’ve quoted above in 580EX’s
www.dsaphoto.com
A picture is thousand words that takes less than a second while a thousand words is a picture that takes a month.
I just read a good post on this over at the Scott Kelby’s blog- http://www.scottkelby.com/blog/2009/archives/4280
Touches on a lot of the same stuff as has been discussed here, but it also makes some good points that I hadn’t thought of – worth a read.
Sorry for a late response, but I just got back this morning from a long trip through south america.
I own 2 sunpak 383, a recenlty acquired used Canon 430EX(haven’t done used it myself yet), a set of Elinchrom skyports (2 recievers), a few light stands and a few umbrellas of different sizes. I also own some monlights for studio work. I have to say that while the speedlite style flashes are limited on their ability, they can get the job done properly if you know how to work within their limitations.
If you can get a deal on the sunpak 383s I’d say pick them up. I bought mine for around $100 each. They have since been discontinued but are great strobes for the money.http://society6.com/grainfarmer Fly Fishing and Landscape open edition Photography prints.
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