Speaking of Knock Offs

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  • #73886
    Zach Matthews
    The Itinerant Angler
    #73887

    That’s incredible! I would hope Sage has the legal staff to shut these guys down.

    #73890
    Zach Matthews
    The Itinerant Angler

    Michael –

    As I commented in another thread, it’s almost impossible.

    Hailing a 100% overseas manufacturer into court in the United States AND then getting a judgment you can enforce is really only going to happen if there’s an American front company with assets that you can seize.

    Theoretically, you could sue the overseas manufacturer in your local court, provided you could show they have done business in your particular jurisdiction. You have to show they have “sufficient contacts with the forum,” usually pursuant to your particular state’s “Long Arm Statute.” Then you have to actually get service of process on them so they know they are being sued. So I guess you could hire a guy to go to China to serve the papers.

    There is a 99% likelihood that these companies would just ignore you and keep operating. You could win a default judgment against them here in America, as well as an injunctive order from the court telling them to cease and desist. But again, no way to enforce them.

    Think of it this way. Say you’re selling a product you make to someone in Botswana over the internet. A Botswana court holds that you have broken Botswanan law because they have someone there who sells the same product. You haven’t broken any American laws at all. What are you going to do? Probably nothing. I could not care less if there is a Botswanan judgment hanging out there over me, because I am never going to Botswana to submit myself to their court.

    As a practical matter, these guys are immune to lawsuits. At the end of the day lawsuits only have power because we submit to the government that enforces them. Foreign nationals don’t, and there’s no way to stop someone from doing business over the internet or through the mails when you can’t seize their assets or send the police out to enforce a court order.

    Zach

    Tl;dr: Batman may have no jurisdiction, but the courts do.

    #73893
    Bob RigginsBob Riggins
    Member

    Plus, the company is located on mainland China. This guys can hack into and steal our security secrets with no repercussions, so why shouldn’t they steal the Sage name.

    #73895
    Zach Matthews
    The Itinerant Angler

    Bob –

    As you know, manufacturers read this site. One of them noted after reading your comment that they keep their design files behind an “air gap” (meaning no outside connection to the internet) just to be cautious about international espionage.

    Zach

    #73899
    R Black
    Member

    And so it goes. Whether flyrods, power tools or any other thing made in China. If we buy them aren’t we cutting our own economic throats and greasing their war machine.

    Scary to think we need them so badly as a trading partner, that we can’t stop these products from import.

    #73901

    I understand what you’re saying, Zach. In my pre-retirement life I worked for an international company with offices in China. We had Chinese companies going so far as to copy screen layouts after they had already stolen the code behind the system!

    As I said in a different post, I’m now trying to buy only US-made goods. And not just fishing gear. I’ve been paying some premium prices the past few years for clothing made in US but at least I feel good wearing it! Unfortunately, there will always be folks who want to buy cheap so the foreign knockoffs will always have a market.

    #73920
    Scott K.Scott K.
    Member

    Just seeing this and posted something in the other thread.

    In any case, the reverse engineering and flex profile matching is probably OK, for better or for worse. The only issue I see for these guys is they are using the Sage name to market the goods – that could lead to issues.

    • This reply was modified 6 years, 7 months ago by Scott K.Scott K..
    #73925
    Jay MalyonJay Malyon
    Member

    I forget how I found these but I stumbled across them while looking for a known manufacturers reels online.
    Looks like they have pretty much every reel copied.
    http://www.aliexpress.com/products/large-arbor-fly-reel.html

    #73926
    Scott K.Scott K.
    Member

    <cite>@jay malyon said:</cite>
    I forget how I found these but I stumbled across them while looking for a known manufacturers reels online.
    Looks like they have pretty much every reel copied.
    http://www.aliexpress.com/products/large-arbor-fly-reel.html

    Wow. I am sure they are all turds too. I had a korean manufactured generic reel (Aurora Trillium) and it was terrible.

    If they have a design so close to the other reels, they could have problems with a trade dress infringement claim.

    I want the “Ant King.”

    • This reply was modified 6 years, 7 months ago by Scott K.Scott K..
    #73928
    Zach Matthews
    The Itinerant Angler

    Check this out:

    http://www.aliexpress.com/item/top-quality-most-popular-CNC-large-arbor-fly-fishing-reel-HV-5-6/555468644.html

    versus this:

    http://bluehalogear.com/?page_id=47

    versus this:

    http://www.orvis.com/store/product.aspx?pf_id=1T2K

    First, if I’m Orvis, I’d be ready to bust some caps at my supplier. But even assuming the knock-offs were stolen or done after the fact, as opposed to coming out the back door of my same factory, what can you really do? I mean, I’ve never heard of Blue Halo reels. Or MaxCatch.

    I think this is just the cost of doing business overseas. It sucks. But maybe the solution is to bring production back here where people are accountable and can lock their tech down.

    • This reply was modified 6 years, 7 months ago by Zach Matthews.
    #73930
    Jay MalyonJay Malyon
    Member

    I knew that one looked familiar…

    #73931
    Peter E.Peter E.
    Member

    That sucks. But I suppose it’s going to happen more and more though, especially if the market takes it in. The internet allows for a global market place and international trade law is sketchy at best for such issues. I would think though that the quality of American made gear will always be in demand and the Chinese are still a ways behind, or that would be my understanding.

    #73934
    Zach Matthews
    The Itinerant Angler

    Peter –

    I think the Chinese *would* be capable of making gear just as good as ours. But that wouldn’t fit the market model. China is a collectivist culture, where the square peg gets pounded into the round hole. I don’t think there’s the support for creativity that we have in the West. What they’re really good at is duplicating exactly the same thing over and over almost infinitely (witness the Beijing Olympics).

    So while a Chinese factory would certainly be able to make a point for point copy of, say, a Nautilus, and make it indistinguishable in quality, I don’t think they would be able to independently invent a Nautilus. So far they have made no contributions in the form of an innovative new drag or a wholly original way of making a fly rod. And if they did make perfect copies, then their prices would have to go up. The only way they stay price competitive with the built in disadvantage of shipping cost is to employ people for low wages and to keep quality at a barely-acceptable to medium-decent level.

    #73944

    American firms should start undercutting Chinese rip-offs with even cheaper goods from Cambodia,or wherever the slave labor market is at it’s best this week.

    I bet they would take notice to copyright, trademark and IP rights then..

    Anyway, everything the Chinese make including this laptop is just shit dressed as clay as far as I’m concerned..

    www.dsaphoto.com

    A picture is thousand words that takes less than a second while a thousand words is a picture that takes a month.

    #73972
    Gerard SGerard S
    Member

    how about these. The G Lomis/Shimano is made in China, but the difference between this reels are very subtle. The knock off (or factory back door model) even has the same ridges on the spool! Just a couple of extra holes drilled in the frame fingers.

    Knock Off

    Knock off

    G Loomis

    Regards
    Gerard

    • This reply was modified 6 years, 7 months ago by Gerard SGerard S.
    • This reply was modified 6 years, 7 months ago by Gerard SGerard S.
    • This reply was modified 6 years, 7 months ago by Gerard SGerard S.
    • This reply was modified 6 years, 7 months ago by Gerard SGerard S.
    #73981
    Zach Matthews
    The Itinerant Angler

    I honestly just really like the name Ant King. In my mind, the Ant King is probably superior to the Loomis model just on strength of character.

    🙂

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