Private owned water
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Being from Pa and fishing the area that was heavily disputed water, the Little J and resulting in a major court battle, what is the opinion of many who fish and frequent this board?
Eric –
I just finished writing a piece about the Little J controversy yesterday for the next issue of American Angler.
Well, I just typed up a novel of a response to this and then had the post “fail” as I was posting it and lost the whole damn thing. So here is an attempt at abbreviated version.
Glad to hear this case will get national attention. I was hoping for a “local” to write the article, no offense meant at all Zach, but this issue really hits a nerve with us Pennsy boys. But then again, it is probably better that you write it, otherwise it would be hard to contain my volatility and I might end up in jail. Looking forward to the article.
DB is a real DB if you know what I mean. Just mention his name around here and tempers flare. Zach’s summary above is accurate and to the point. No need to reopen flesh wounds any more, so I thought I would share my thoughts/experiences on two sidebar issues that are related to this bigger case.
First. Spring Ridge Club. I cannot for the life of me understand why people would join this club. I am a somewhat educated man but the “math” just doesn’t make sense to me at all. SRC has many VERY reputable, big name people from the fly fishing industry. People who have pioneered this sport and carry a TON of clout. They have fished around the globe in some of the greatest places on earth. They also are not hurting financially either. So why on God’s green earth would they spend $50,000 to join a club that lets them fish for laboratory rainbow trout in Altoona, PA? With that same money they could go to Chile, Alaska, the Marquesas, Scotland, Russia, New Zealand, back to Patagonia, then spend the summer at their second house in Montana. Sure the fish in the Little J are/were big. Sure it gets some nice hatches and is a great little river. But I just don’t get it. Maybe it is because they are aging and cant travel much anymore.
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First. Spring Ridge Club. I cannot for the life of me understand why people would join this club. I am a somewhat educated man but the “math” just doesn’t make sense to me at all. SRC has many VERY reputable, big name people from the fly fishing industry. People who have pioneered this sport and carry a TON of clout. They have fished around the globe in some of the greatest places on earth. They also are not hurting financially either. So why on God’s green earth would they spend $50,000 to join a club that lets them fish for laboratory rainbow trout in Altoona, PA?I would bet that they are getting a rate based on their willingness to endorse the place and are not paying the full price. The last I heard, club rates are up to $85K as they are based on availability. The list of names of people that are endorsing the clubs is worth checking out. It will surprise many people.
In their defense, they probably got on board early before Donny’s ultimate plans became clear. For me it is unfortunate that they aren’t changing their tune, but there are probably contracts involved and Donny does seem to be one to club people with legal crap.
I think the worst thing about this is Beaver’s shady way of going about this. In public he shouts conservation and the lamentation that he saw more and more no trespassing signs going up as a kid. So what he does is buy prime water, artificially pump the fishery and put up bigger no trespassing signs than were there when he got it. The only thing he is conserving is his bottom line. In my book he is nothing but a huckster.
Tim –
I didn’t want to get overly obtuse, but since you asked, here’s how legal precedent works. First off, there’s precedent, and then there’s precedent. The standard is called stare decisis, and it’s real simple: whatever a court has said about the law before is what goes, unless a new court changes the law. Courts can change their minds–they do so all the time–but it becomes harder and harder for them to do so when there is what we call a “bright line standard.”
When a legal tenet is as old as the navigability standard, there’s a tendency for courts to view the standard as vaguer and less important than something that’s recently been handed down. That’s just human nature: new precedent, or precedent that has recently been re-affirmed, always trumps old musty law books. I would never consider basing one of my legal arguments, for instance in a motion for summary judgment, on a case older than about 1975, unless I just couldn’t get around it. When I see opposing counsel using legal arguments based on old case law, I start to smell victory.
By reaffirming the navigability standard in Pennsylvania, the courts have made the law new again. They’ve given it additional sticking power.
To me, the most important factor in winning that battle is responsibility. Anglers who access rivers that are bordered by private land *must* be responsible about their behavior. I saw an angler in Arkansas, a guy who’s well known in fly shops and has posted some big fish, but who isn’t a pro, drop a beer can in the Norfork River one day a couple years ago. I couldn’t believe it -Zach
All really good thoughts Zach.
Donny Beaver has been at work all over “steelhead alley”–he’s also leased sections of Ohio’s Conneaut Creek whose steelhead stocking partnership between Ohio and Pennsylvania makes it a great stream in both the fall and spring seasons.
He’s also booked guides for entire seasons–meaning that he cuts them a check for 30 trips, whenever he has clients for them the guide will take them out, but if Beaver doesn’t have clients, or conditions are unsuitable for fishing the guide can keep the money.
To answer your question Eric, yes, I would and will boycott anyone involved with this kind of operation. As Zach has mentioned, the key issue was one of navigability.
This is a really interesting discussion and one that will have ramifications across the country over the next several years.
Zach has given you a great description of the navigability standard and where the Federal Courts stand on it.
Donny Beaver and his like are going to continue to try to usurp access from the public and make a buck doing it.
It seems as if the fishing tackle manufacturers would be allies in this effort with the “regular Joe” fishermen.
“I’ve heard through the rumor mill that Lefty Kreth (sp?) is a member of Spring Hill.”
Jeff you are correct as are the Becks. What’s ironic is Fishing Creek has always been their home waters. They live in Benton and have property on the stream. As Zach has pointed out, the issue of navigabilty is a tough one. Currently I’ve been polling some of the local historians in that area in order to try to determiine if the water was ever used as a source for commerce.
Since he[Lefty] makes a lot of money by licensing out his name to the TFO brand, I wonder how he reconciles the issue.
Since he[Lefty] makes a lot of money by licensing out his name to the TFO brand, I wonder how he reconciles the issue.
Not trying to be a stickler but no one in the fly fishing business makes a lot of money.
I am sure the Becks, Lefty, and the other Pros arent paying the big bucks that your regular joe shmoe is for a memebership at the SRC. In fact, I would bet the pay nothing. Donnie B is just using them as pawns to try to convince us that what he is doing is not wrong. DB is the enemy here, not Lefty or the other pros.
Using them or not, DB is using their name and images with permission. We are all stewards of the sport and trying to make a living or not they should be watching what is associated with their name. In my opinion what DB is doing is bad for the sport and supporting his efforts with endorsements should be questioned.
That may very well be the case but I think there’s still a lesson to be learned in all of that.
Not saying they are bad people but they definitely made a bad choice the way I see it.
Thanks for a nice legal description of stream access rights. I believe Georgia law is similar to that described by Zach for NC. Trout fishing has been becoming a private business here for a handful of years. Most of these private places have not been open to true public fishing in living memory–so we don’t feel it when they change. However, some landowners that traditionally allowed folks access (or at least didn’t run them off), are now creating private pay-to-fish clubs. I’m used to fishing on public NF lands and I know it won’t change here any time soon. There are plenty of worse uses for land than running a private fishing club on it. But I sure wish we had wade-in or bank access to more medium sized streams.
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