Private Casting Instruction
- This topic has 19 replies, 13 voices, and was last updated Apr 2, 2010 at 2:05 pm by
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In the next couple of weeks I am going to get some private casting instruction from a Master Certified Instructor (MCI). I am looking forward to it and know that it is something I really need. My question is about tipping. I have a good grasp for proper tipping etiquette on guided trips, but I am unsure about what is called for on instruction. Is tipping expected? I know it is up to the individual and probably never scoffed at by the recipient. Maybe some of you who provide casting instruction can chime in.
I am lucky enough to have an MCI as my neighbor and experienced my first informal casting lesson this afternoon.
Zach, the analogy to golf instruction is a good one. You may have to completely discard the way you cast now in order to do things the right way. I’ve had a lesson or two and have found that the teachers will usually tweak what you’re doing, but there’s nothing wrong with starting from scratch, either.
The shop I worked at had a MCI that worked on Saturdays. Â We would attempt to schedual him as many lessons as we could during the week so that he was out of shop and in the park working with students.
Our store policy was that if you bought a complete outfit from us you got free casting lessons – forever. Â Few people capitalized like they could have. Â Otherwise, anyone could sign up for a lesson and the shop charged a nominal fee. Â The MCI simply got paid his normal hourly rate from the shop and sometimes he got a tip. Â This was the way it worked for us. Â
Are you paying the guy a flat fee for the lesson?  You should problaby tip him something and you should problably find out from Zach what kind of technique he learned from Tiger Woods, that sounds interesting… 😕
Kb
 ÂThat may sound kinda mystical but I’ve actually conducted a lot of research into this.  In the sports medicine field they call it “deliberate practice,” which basically means intentionally analyzing physical movement and making various tweaks, and trying to mentally learn from the physical feedback you’re being given by each tweak.
I’m listening to the book Talent Is Overrated by Geoff Colvin and The Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell.
You should problaby tip him something and you should problably find out from Zach what kind of technique he learned from Tiger Woods, that sounds interesting… 😕
Hahahah.
If you guys really want to know, I found this link to the article that was the starting point of our research.
When most golfers change their swing they almost always take two steps backwards – even Tiger Woods – as it takes time to incorporate the new techniques.
(Harrington and Garcia are still struggling with their swing changes.)
Sadly, some golfers never come back after changing their swings.
Interestingly, when Joan Wulff decided to become a tournament caster her mentor warned her that her casting would go downhill for a while.
Now, I’m not saying a person shouldn’t take casting lessons, but many instructors can cast well because they have been well-taught from the start, but don’t, therefore, understand all the defects that can go wrong with a long-distance cast. They don’t understand those defects because they’ve never experienced them and then had to correct them.
Also, different casters use different techniques. Techniques that work for one caster might not work for another.
I, for example, do not cast like Lefty Kreh. If I tried to help someone who did I’m sure I’d make that person an even worse caster.
When I took lessons I was casting about 80 feet. After the lessons I was struggling to break 60 feet. It took me six months to figure out what was going wrong.
So if I was looking for an instructor I’d look for someone who casts in a style similiar to mine.
In the end, however, I think casters will probably have to experiment at least
I tend to agree with Randy.
For years, I have had a pholisophical difference with instructors (various sports but one in particular) who would break some person down and rebuild them from scratch. In my case and others “conventional wisdom” was to teach people the “correct” text book way to do it. Great for those starting out, not so great for those who had been doing it for years and competed at a national level already and did just fine.
In the case of Pro golfers and various other professional athletes you can make good arguements that its “justified”…ie millions of dollars are on the line.
Some the worlds great athletes had very unorthodox “styles”. This includes goalies (hasek), Hitters in baseball, golfers, the list goes on and is quite long.
But for recreational, advanced amateur etc Im going to beg to differ and whats more important is massaging the best out of what the individuals “style” is rather than trying to rebuild them into the picture perfect pure technical stroke/swing/delivery.
When I’m looking for help with my casting I want someone who can pick up things Im doing within “my” stroke and make adjustments to better me. Not rebuild it
I hope this doesn’t sound like sour grapes, though in a way it certainly is. When I was struggling with my long-distance casting I would post questions of bulletin board, hoping to get solutions for my casting defects. Rarely did I get those solutions.
Last season I struggled learning spey casting. Again and again my casting was held back by the same basic defect. So after reading articles and watching videos I posted questions. Not one certified casting instructor suggested what might be going on. True, it’s hard to diagnose casting defects on a bulletin board, but still I think with all the answers I received, at least one should have put me on the right track.
BTW, I think one reason the “Lefty-Krey-Style” of long distance casting has become so popular is because it’s a simple casting style, and casters and instructors don’t, therefore, have to correct many defects. I suspect – but I’m not sure – that using the Kreh style will limit a caster’s accuracy and his or her ability to change trajectories.
Randy
Hey Randy –
What specific casting issues were you trying to work through, and what advice ultimately proved accurate for you?
Zach
Is tipping expected? I know it is up to the individual and probably never scoffed at by the recipient. Maybe some of you who provide casting instruction can chime in.
HI Shane
Tipping is not an Australian concept and so it rarely arises over here, but what I would say is that if I had a choice between a tip or that person ‘investing in themselves’ by going and doing some practice after a lesson, Â I would much prefer they did that.To me the ultimate reward is to find a student that is committed to the learning process and then goes and practices after a lesson. From an instructor’s perspective I find it so much more rewarding to give a lesson then see that person a little while later and see that they have been practising as their casting has improved. That to me is reward enough.
Just on that and looking at some of the other posts, given that experience has shown me that very few students actually go and do the practice afterwards, I have an approach of not trying to rebuild someone’s style or mechanics because more often than not they dont do the practice required to then cement the new changes, and end up in limbo, casting worse than they did before the lesson and not really understanding or getting the new style/stroke/mechanics.
A personal view is that I like to identify no more than 2 things for someone to work on and just concentrate on that.
I hope this post doesnt sound pessimistic but its more an observation, after seeing casters over a couple of years, and seeing no discernable improvement. So long story short… dont tip, but heres a tip.. ‘go practice’!
🙂
Cheers
SimonI hope this doesn’t sound like sour grapes, though in a way it certainly is. When I was struggling with my long-distance casting I would post questions of bulletin board, hoping to get solutions for my casting defects. Rarely did I get those solutions.
Last season I struggled learning spey casting. Again and again my casting was held back by the same basic defect. So after reading articles and watching videos I posted questions. Not one certified casting instructor suggested what might be going on. True, it’s hard to diagnose casting defects on a bulletin board, but still I think with all the answers I received, at least one should have put me on the right track.
BTW, I think one reason the “Lefty-Krey-Style” of long distance casting has become so popular is because it’s a simple casting style, and casters and instructors don’t, therefore, have to correct many defects. I suspect – but I’m not sure – that using the Kreh style will limit a caster’s accuracy and his or her ability to change trajectories.
Randy
Randy-
I would actually argue that “Lefty Style” is a bit tough of a cast to teach out casting issues- most people have problems with line tracking with this style due to the torso movement.
It is however the cast that I lean on for distance- in teaching someone this- they must first have the ability to keep the rod path straight- no matter what style this inevitably is the usual culprit in errors. That or power application.
I am interested in hearing what the defect was that showed up in both your spey and regular casting- care to share? I am just begining to take up spey myself- and have seen some benefits that apply to one handed casting.
And also- I am one that would need to see the cast before making a call on it- as anything else is just speculation-not that I won’t speculate- but it is different in person.
Oh and hello- to everyone else- this is I think my first post.
Dan
On the single-handed cast there were many defects.
On the spey cast, at the end of my back swing I was lowering the rod tip. This was adding slack to my D-Loop. I was doing this for several reasons:
1. I was breaking my wrists backward a bit.
2. When trying to end my back swing moving the rod tip slightly upward, I was lifting my bottom hand more than my top hand. (My bottom forearm, therefore, was pointing at 2 o’clock instead of at 1 or 1:30.)
3. I was lowering my forearms too much. (At the end of the back swing I don’t want my top forearm to point past 12: 30. I don’t want my bottom forearm to point past 1:30.)
Also, often I was swinging back too far and blowing my anchors.
Finally, keep in mind when using different spey lines – long belly, scandi, skagit – we must use slightly different techniques.
Yes, I do believe in taking casting lessons. Just be prepared: No fly caster has all the answers; so it might be helpful to learn from two or even three instructors, depending on what you’re trying to achieve.
You don’t have to cast 100 or even 80 feet to be a good caster and to enjoy the fly fishing sport.
Randy
I practiced my spey casting yesterday. Again struggled. Finally realized that I was swinging my elbows and arms outward too much.
To execute a back swing it’s better to not move my elbows so much and to instead move my top and in a half-circle.
Hope that makes sense.
No doubt. A good instructor could have saved me a lot of grief.
Randy
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