Photo Credit Only
- This topic has 45 replies, 15 voices, and was last updated Jun 18, 2008 at 1:59 am by
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I am not an attorney, nor do I play one on TV but… It seems to me that just the act of an employer trying to force you into breaking a law, is breaking a law on its own. Disciplining you for not breaking a law is a new can of worms and probably breaks another law. Make an anonymous call to your District Attorney office and get the actual truth.
Seems to be that your Boss would be grateful to you as you saved them ,yourself and the client a potential law suit. I am sure that the image in question has probably been registered too and if that is the case, you saved everyone a boat load of money from this potential law suit. Protect yourself my friend and protect your job, seek legal advise on what your rights are and how you can best protect yourself. You don’t have to seek legal remedy but at least know what your recourses are.
If it counts: I am very proud of you but at the same time, I hate that you were put in that position.
I am not an attorney, nor do I play one on TV but… It seems to me that just the act of an employer trying to force you into breaking a law, is breaking a law on its own. Disciplining you for not breaking a law is a new can of worms and probably breaks another law. Make an anonymous call to your District Attorney office and get the actual truth.
Seems to be that your Boss would be grateful to you as you saved them ,yourself and the client a potential law suit. I am sure that the image in question has probably been registered too and if that is the case, you saved everyone a boat load of money from this potential law suit. Protect yourself my friend and protect your job, seek legal advise on what your rights are and how you can best protect yourself. You don’t have to seek legal remedy but at least know what your recourses are.
If it counts: I am very proud of you but at the same time, I hate that you were put in that position.
Ben said it all – especially the last bit.
Kendal
Hey guys –
To the extent that my “business model” “worked,” I’d ask you to remember that I also write quite a bit.
Hi, I’ve come into this late and haven’t read all of it yet.
(go Ben ! :D)My posistion is that when you’re new you sometimes have to grease wheels to get a look in and be noticed.
This seems to be the case no matter how good your shots are because there’s so many good photographers around now.My points based on 20 years in the business are this –
Give photos away for credits with caution, there’s a lot of people who will flatter and BS to get the free use of your photo.
It saves them a heap of money.If you must do something for credit make a deal where if they forget that credit they pay full market rates.
(it happens)
Be clear on what the use of the photo is – don’t say yes to a shot for a small magazine artiicle for example, only to see it used as a full page ad.Try to ask for something with the credit, a company offering goods or services should be able to give something for your services.
If the refuse it might be because they have ZIP respect for you and your skills.Don’t do this long term, I’ve found that people get used to freebies and wont pay for the next time around.
You have to recognize this and not give in even if it means you miss out next time.And my final point – when you give shots away you’re taking money out of the pockets of working photographers.
We can’t complain because a lot of us have done it as well to get started, but if you make a habit of it you will never get anywhere and not make many friends amongst the pro’s.Contra deals (sorry, another final point :D) are, IMHO a better bet.
Make sure you get what you’re after and always be clear what that is.I’ve found that a lot of people in the fishing industry have no idea and don’t care what photos are worth.
For example a lodge I did 4 days shooting for on the other side of the country thought that providing me with food and accom plus a few days mostly looking on and shooting as others caught fish was a fair deal for my time.
It’s not.
When I go to work as a photographer I get A DAY RATE plus all costs and travel expenses.
It would have cost them a lot more than food & fuel for the boat.When I asked this same lodge when could I come back for a couple days guided fishing I might as well have asked if I could bonk them as well.
I got a firm no – we were square.They had used my shots for a couple years of print ads and lots of other stuff.
I will also add that I shot 36 rolls of tranny film for the job – it cost me a fortune.
All the above is my fault for trusting these people instead of making a clear deal and sticking to it.
(one of the lodge owners is a lawyer –www.dsaphoto.com
A picture is thousand words that takes less than a second while a thousand words is a picture that takes a month.
Just to add PoV, and that coming from someone who ( I hope) is on the cusp of breaking into the “biz”.
I get alot (relative term) of request for photos (Gratis) and have gotten request for the same but with credit. Much like some other people have noted, the determining factors for me are
1) Whos requesting them
2) to what end.Up here the “world” is pretty small, where everyone whos related to the business be it as guides, pro staff, writers, whatever knows each other. There are very, very few ” dedicated photographers”. Seemingly theres a fair amount of…it’s not what you know, it’s who you know that gets your foot in. I’m making lots of strides lately on the WHO’s and I know from word of mouth my “photos” and name are starting to get noticed but………………..So it’s probalby a matter of time and breaks………
The guide I like to use and who manages a store has requested a couple photos that will be used is a “promotional” aspect beyond just pics on their website (which Ive also given them photos for gratis). So while I know the photo (s) in question will be used commercially and promotionally, its something of a friend, who’s trying to stay ahead in a very small, competetive market. I didn’t hesitate to say yes when he asked if he could use them, I doub’t I’ll be getting credit but its goodwill and a friend.
Beyond instances of that nature I don’t know that I’ll “give” stuff away free ( exception being freinds/acquantices for personal use).
As David said it’s still work.
It cost “me” alot both finacially (gas alone is getting expensive)and in time to go get the photo’s, I don’t know why people would expect to get them free.If it was that easy they could spend a wad of cash and do it themselves. They could then spend the time and energy processing them and last but not least they could opt to sacrfice the enjoyment of actually fishing or hunting..
Most of these people want to fish (or hunt) when they are out, not lug 40pds of gear around and get behind the lens. Or they’d rather fish Saturday than grab the camera and go gets pics of A,B,C of non fishing material. Hense why they pay (or should pay) others who do.
My time, my outlay and my efforts is producing high quality fishing/hunting/wildlife photography is worth something.
I was contacted by someone associated with a publication about some photos for credit only (website useage) . I said probably but it would depend on the specific images he wanted. Turns out its for a publication ( the editor contacted me days later)…to make it short and to paraphrase…Love the work, can we use some, we need to talk,etc,etc. I told him I’d be very interested in that and more..I don’t know if was an attempt at a end around or not, and whether or not they hoped to get them free, which once it was confirmed they were for a publication I made it clear they wouldnt be “free” but I’ve yet to hear back. I don’t think it was an out and out end around, however I’m not going to chase him/them depsite my rather large desire to do stuff for them.
There aren’t a whole lot of guys willing to forego fishing and make the commitment to concentrate of photography..which imo if you want good photos and a good variety you really need to do. Fewer still are the people capable of doing it ( lots can carry cameras and turn out mediocre photos), and there is the very real expense. If they want my photos its going to cost, or put down the rods and make the time commitments to learn photogrpahy, learn processing, and spend the time and coin doing it themselves.
It’s hard, really hard. I’d really love to land some work for the publication and get my name out there more, but I’m not going to whore myself and give them photos it cost me a ton to produce for “just” credit.
The Disciplinary “write up” is a good thing for me – documentation of me doing the right thing. The job ran over the weekend with stolen material on the brochure. The boss (who is also the owner of the company) pushed it through behind my back.
You would think that he would be grateful that I tried to save him and the client a bunch of headache. His only concern was making money and what he calls customer service (the customer is always right).
I am curious to see how this plays out because the employee that was strong armed into running the job has also contacted Super Stock to cover his back. Now to go to a meeting on how to make this company “GREEN” – this should be fun.
The Disciplinary “write up” is a good thing for me – documentation of me doing the right thing. The job ran over the weekend with stolen material on the brochure. The boss (who is also the owner of the company) pushed it through behind my back.
You would think that he would be grateful that I tried to save him and the client a bunch of headache. His only concern was making money and what he calls customer service (the customer is always right).
I am curious to see how this plays out because the employee that was strong armed into running the job has also contacted Super Stock to cover his back. Now to go to a meeting on how to make this company “GREEN” – this should be fun.
2 quick comments:
– I’d consult an employment attorney. This situation stinks to me.
– I’d be looking for another job. Who wants to work for someone that’s willing to do something knowingly wrong.
I’ve been in your shoes before, and it caused me massive amounts of stress.
Good luck man – and again, good on ya for tryin’ to do the right thing.
Kendal
No worries. As long as I keep doing the right thing and he gets mad and documents it. All is well.
Honestly, I am not worried about it for me – the only worry is about my employees because many of them are so new to the game that they do not understand what or why I fight it. I am in search of a good business attorney to protect them and help with my start up.
I am working on doing my own thing, so the new job is coming. The hard part is that the company that I work for sucks so much of my time away and a new baby takes the rest of the time, so the start up has been slower than i would like. My web site is almost complete and it will be launching soon. And soon I’ll be able to utilize the talents of many of the folks on this board. My studio will focus on design for the outdoors… Fishing, backpacking, bird hunting and so on. Maybe we all can make something happen. (I have been keeping GREAT notes on everyones work on this board)
Good for you Kevin!
Here’s wishing you huge success.
I’m very pleased with a recent success of my own, and have to share.
I just today came to terms with a photo stock agency in Germany that’s going to market my work in Germany, and then their sister office will be marketing it internationally. I’m very pleased with this, as they’re interested in my nature and outdoor (hunting/fishing) work. As I sell more, it’ll mean more time for me in the field, which I’m ALL about.
Hey Guys –
A friend told me about this site and I’ve enjoyed perusing everyone’s work. Some great shots, here.
I don’t claim to have all the answers, but I’ve been shooting for pay for about ten years, now, and I’d like to add my .02 to this thread.
Last week, I got some choice fish shots with a manufacturer’s product prominently displayed. I sent him the proofs (over the transom) this morning and he immediately replied with “great shots, but I can’t pay you anything to use them”. He wants to swap gear for images.
His previous catalog was filled front to back with shots that people had sent him in trade for his product. He’s planning to do the same again this year. I saw the 2007 catalog and some of them were nice shots—worth much more than the compensation the shooter got. As someone pointed out earlier in this thread, if you’re getting his MSRP, he’s basically getting your photo at half-price (or less).
While it’s tempting to take him up on his offer, I’ve been doing this long enough to understand the tragic ripple effect it will have on the industry. I can’t pay my mortgage with rods, reels, and waders. If I sell the stuff on Ebay then all I’m doing is hurting my local shop, which is currently teetering on the edge.
Hold out for pay, guys. Learn what your work is worth, and demand compensation. There’s no category for amateur pricing versus pro. If someone wants your shot, then you’re a pro. Charge them accordingly.
Some of the best advice I’ve gotten came my first year in the biz from a respected shooter. He told me that there’s nothing we can do about undercutting and bartering for images, but if you hold out and present yourself as a confident and talented professional, then you’ll eventually be perceived in that way. I know it’s tough to get started, but if you make a habit of declining poor pay, then you’ll eventually attract better clients. Cheap work, leads to more cheap work.
My door is always open (send me an email through ToshBrown.com – not too good to openly discuss pricing here).
Take care, and keep shooting –
TB
Tosh,
Welcome to IA. I see you have discovered this rather unique flyfishing/photography website. Kudos to Zach for making it possible.
I’ve always enjoyed your photography and became a fan when I saw your work in Drake Magazine. I’m looking forward to your imput.
Steve
As an editor of an “Outdoor Magazine,” lemme say that I almost never ask anyone to work for free. We pay for all photographs and illustrations, with 3 exceptions I can think of:
1. The illustration that goes on the back page is a “fine art” painting, usually, and is seen as advertising for the artist (who sometimes gets an actual advertisement, as well). These are pre-existing images NOT created for the magazine, and they are usually for sale. This is a deal that the art director works out with his connections.;
2. When someone who obviously doesn’t need the money voluntarily waves payment. For instance, in the new issue of AA there are a couple shots of the swollen White River by Zach’s dad, who said he didn’t expect to be paid. (When I don’t have to pay for shots like those, I have more budget to pay photographers like all y’all); and
3. When the images offer free publicity for an advocacy group, outfitter, tourism destination, etc. These are usually small, newsy images in the front of book or illustrate travel articles.Other than that, EVERYONE gets paid. We have published rates, and everyone gets paid the same, whether he’s a lifelong pro or a weekend warrior.
Check out the table of contents in the new issue to see a lovely image by one of your own.
Phil
In the case of my dad’s picture, I viewed it under the same general category as pictures that I provide for the news section, which I am paid for as part of my general obligations as editor of that section.
For instance, in the new issue of AA there are a couple shots of the swollen White River by Zach’s dad, who said he didn’t expect to be paid. (When I don’t have to pay for shots like those, I have more budget to pay photographers like all y’all);
Damn, there goes my chance of “saleable images” of White River flooding getting published :'(. Someone (in another post) was suppose to keep those in mind for their next flood story.
::)
Phil,
THANKS… Thanks for clarifying. I am not sure who I talked to exactly but I will dig it up and let you know because the information provided to me was different and conflicting. I contacted your magazine as well as your competitors with the same response. Your response has given me a look. The magazine responses have made my wife hesitant on me changing careers – She is tired of me giving stuff away.
As Zach and some others know, I have been trying to make a change in direction and get back to my roots of Illustration and painting – It has been a one step forward and 2 steps back process because of all the crazy bumps in my road of life. All is well and I keep plugging away (house fires, tornados, babies, illnesses, deaths, a crazy boss – I wish I were joking – stay away from me because Cameron thinks the locust are next – July 2 is the anniversary of my house burning down). Everything is rebuilt and coming back together. With all this the jump from a stable bill paying job to starving artist and independent designer is hard but IT IS those bumps in my road have brought me back to painting. July 2 is when I plan on launching my web site – a way to write off the past year.
With all this mess around me, I have also been building a business plan, a web presence and a new portfolio because everything I had was destroyed. I am still holding off on taking jobs because my present career does not give me the proper time to give folks what they deserve – Everyone will know when I am ready and I will need everyones help in finding the bugs in the site. It is all close and yes… I am scared and excited.
For those of you who don’t know me well, the above post was my rattling Zach’s cage a bit. Zach, always the gracious host, sent me a pm and explanation for his editorial decisions (which was unnecessary for my part).
It was funny to me, however, how the topic of this thread got around to my loosing out on some photo sales in the justification of having more money to pay photographers
Hold out for pay, guys. Learn what your work is worth, and demand compensation. There’s no category for amateur pricing versus pro. If someone wants your shot, then you’re a pro. Charge them accordingly.
RIGHT ON !!
www.dsaphoto.com
A picture is thousand words that takes less than a second while a thousand words is a picture that takes a month.
Phil,
THANKS… Thanks for clarifying. I am not sure who I talked to exactly but I will dig it up and let you know because the information provided to me was different and conflicting. I contacted your magazine as well as your competitors with the same response. Your response has given me a look. The magazine responses have made my wife hesitant on me changing careers – She is tired of me giving stuff away.
As Zach and some others know, I have been trying to make a change in direction and get back to my roots of Illustration and painting – It has been a one step forward and 2 steps back process because of all the crazy bumps in my road of life. All is well and I keep plugging away (house fires, tornados, babies, illnesses, deaths, a crazy boss
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