Fly Line Weight
- This topic has 24 replies, 11 voices, and was last updated Dec 16, 2008 at 8:28 pm by
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I have been experimenting with fly line weights on different weight rods, and was wanting some ideas as to what everybody else is throwing.
I am finding that in todaysI fish several Winston BiiX or BiiT rods and they all cast at their best with a true weight line, such as, SA Trout or Rio Select Trout.
Hi Jarrod
Rod might feel better when they are lined-up, loaded with a heaver line weight than recommended; however, it doesn’t necessarily mean that the rod performs better.
Before we get into it, let’s assume a few things.
– We use a fast action rod, Sage 5w XP is a good bench mark. Most new graphite rods are relatively fast in action.
– We use a Scientific Angler GPX taper as our test line, I will come back to this in a moment.
– We use the same amount of fly line out of the tip of the rod, let’s say 40 feet. Only the first 30 feet is used to rate the lines line weight.
– We use a similar casing stroke on all casts, you will see why in a second.When the rod is loaded with its designated line weight, the rod will perform as the manufacturer intended, within reason.
When the rod is loaded with one line weight heavier than recommended, the rod action is slowed, due to the additional weight in the line. It slows the recovery rate of the blank and makes the rod flex further into its butt, to generate enough energy to cast the line forward. This is called lining -up and is generally used to teach beginners how to cast more effectively, by simply slowing the action of the rod, allowing the caster to time the change in direction better, time the haul better and have an easier presentation. However, for small stream fishing, it is sometimes recommended that a rod is lined-up to load it better when short casts are required, I don’t agree with this.
When the rod is loaded with one line weight lighter than recommended, the rod weight is quickened. Basically reversing everything I said in the previous paragraph. Apart from the theory that when you need more distance, line down, this does not hold true, as the additional line weight is required to load the blank correctly to get the maximum amount of energy transfer into the rod.
To go back to the lines for a second. Scientific Angler lines are slightly different in their line weights to achieve different goals., so are many other lines.
GPX tapper (General Presentation) is regarded as an all round tapper; it is half a line weight heavier than the AFTM rating, allowing a more comfortable casting stroke and concentrating on efficient casting with general presentation.
XPS tapper (Expert Presentation Series) is regarded as a presentation tapper; it is half a line weight lighter than the AFTM rating, allowing more subtle presentation by reducing the amount of energy transferred to the line.
Here is little bit of reading on AFTM ratings. http://www.letsflyfish.com/aftmprobs.htm
To touch on rod actions.
Sage TCR/TCX – regarded as one of the fastest recovering rods on the market, it is also quite stiff, thus imparting vast amounts energy into the line, allowing the caster to punch the line into strong winds, cast huge distances and create tight loops for good presentation at long distances.
Scott G Series – Generally regarded as the quintessential dry fly rod, it has a slower recovery rate and is also quite soft, imparting far less energy and allowing the caster good loop control at medium distances.Sage Z-Axis – my personal preference to replace my XP, this rod bring in the latest in graphite advancement, allowing a fast recovery rate with a relatively soft rod. Creating a fast action, but delivering less energy.
Let’s touch on flex points.
Stiff, fast action rods generally flex close to the tip.
Medium action rods generally flex to the middle of the rod.
Slow action rods will generally flex all the way to the butt.Orvis had the best way of describing the actions of rods, by calling them Tip Flex, Medium Flex and Full Flex.
I have probably made too many generalizations, used too many premium rods (unfortunately these are the rods I know) and not made any sense at all… but to get back to your original question.
Premium rods should be loaded with the recommended line weight, thus fishing and casting the rod as the way the manufactured intended. Less expensive or cheapies, often need a heavier line weight to hide a poor design or flaws in the construction.
Just my thoughts…
🙂 🙂 🙂
Mike, I couldn’t agree more but would like to add as well that for some reason the public (at least many that I have guided) seem to have an idea that a fast action rod is a better rod, then I hear how they go to lengths to mess with the lines to get a better cast!
In 20+ years of fly fishing I have never had to add a line weight to a rod other than when playing with a cane rod trying to line it up with modern lines.
What is wrong with a soft action rod? Everyone wants a Z Axis these days and before that it was XP and BII. Those are great rods but fast fast fast for most to cast. I would certainly use a rod like that on the Salt or if I ripped streamers or needed the distance but like you said changing lines changes the dynamics of the rod.Jarrod, now days you can pretty much trust that a 6 wt rod wants to cast a 6wt line. If it doesn’t feel good that’s your arm telling you not to get that rod. Your arm is not subject to advertizing or whatever your buddy recommends.
I think that if you need to overweight a rod then you are looking for a slower rod. XP + 1 line = SLT. that kind of thing.
Next time you are at the fly shop test out a G2 or an Orvis anything with a mid flex.
If you have the idea that a slower rod is not as good as a fast rod, nothing could be further from the truth. A slower rod tends to be more forgiving, easier to roll cast, delicate on tippets and accurate.
If your experimentation is in the context of Spey lines….I take back everything I said. 😀
Best of luck.I have got into this debate before and don’t have the energy for it again but I disagree with everything stated above. To each his own. Here is a link to another site with some opposite opinions that lean toward my beliefs on the subject for comparison…
A fly rod factory rating is nothing more than a professional’s opinion of what line you should use to get a comfortable feel with 30 feet of line out. I usually upline all my fast rods because I like the way they feel that way and because I don’t usually cast over 40 feet – mostly 20-25 feet. On salt for longer casts, I usually don’t upline.
It’s all in the engineering mechanics. Simple math. Want to read about it and maybe fall right off to sleep, read the mechanics articles on
http://www.hatofmichigan.org/e-book.htmlAnd all this tip flex crap – is just that.
Line them however you like – there is no right size. It’s whatever feels good on your rod at your distance to you.
There’s my $.02.
And Spence is right, it’s not worth the effort to discuss it further.
Godspeed,
Bob
I am familiar with flex ratings and fast and slow action rods. I just know when you have a client in a drift boat and you are trying to help him cast a 5 wt. fly rod and he says he feels nothing on a back cast, I need to get a little creative. I myself don’t feel the rod loading either, I am just used to it.
Jarrod, I am not doubting your ability to toss a line. I can understand if your client can’t feel your rod load especially if you use a stiff rod and it makes perfect sense that you overline it if that is the case. Great that you identified his issue and fixed it. Good on you.
I will never argue that it can’t or should not be done to overcome a particular technical issue that you face. That’s being creative and that’s what guides are, creative.
I just reread your post because I was under the impression that you overlined many of your rods. I was mistaken, you were speaking generally. I am sorry. 🙂
However some have indicated that they do this as a matter of regularity.
We all know the reasons for choosing a particular line. If my fishing demands a 4 wt line and I buy a 4 wt rod then have to buy a 5 wt line to load it there is a problem Houston!
But Jarrod I think it will be a majority soon who will be overlining rods due to E-bay and such as purchasers are less likely to have cast the rod prior to purchasing over the internet /mail order etc. If the rod doesn’t work well what else can you do? Overline it.Here is a link to Tom Morgan (Winston Rods) in a discussion about rods and rod action.
http://www.rodbuildingforum.com/sources/special/morgan.php
NOTICE (not for those not wanting to waste their time in trivial fingerling dialogue that’s been hashed over before we got here)Here’s the Cole’s notes –
Most rods are too fast – you can overline them to fix it / or you can buy a rod with the right action for you. Many people would toss a slow action rod better but rod manufacturers promote rods that blast through a parking lot as “the best, longest casting etc.)90% of my fish are within 20 feet! Just sayin… 😉
So to partially answer your question Jarrod, my quest over the last few years is to have one line while guiding (Browns) and not have to change back and forth from dry to nymph. I used to carry a GPX and a Nymph Taper. Neither did both well, the GPX didn’t roll or mend well and the Nymph felt heavy and splashed down too hard with a dry. Two years ago I tried the Wulff Nymph taper and it rolled/ mended well at a distance and landed delicately overhand with a dry. Last year I tried the Sharkskin and it worked equally as well.(Same taper as Distance taper but LOUDER)
You might like either as they are slightly heavier than a “Normal” WF line if there is such a thing.
CheersI do not have much to offer in the way of scientific evidence, but I was recently in an Orvis store purchasing a new 4wt, and I needed line to go on the reel that came with it.
Ok well here is another point, again I have no scientific stuff, just what I have read on this one.
I believe it is Coutrland that just came out with a new clear line tha tis not made of PVC.For a fast rod 5wt and below I like the ½ wt heavier lines but it really depends a lot on the rod. For everything else I like to over line big time. An example, I fish big flies a lot and in all honesty a 7wt will cast those flies using a 7wt line in most cases. My issue is how many false casts does is take to get it out to 60-80ft. If it’s lined with 7wt it’ll take several false casts usually. However I can put a 250 or 300 grain line on it and in one dbl haul shoot 60 to 80 ft no problem. My right shoulder, elbow, and wrist, all hurt when I cast now. I’ve been casting to fish for a lot of days over many years. I’ll take every opportunity I can find to save a few casting strokes and maybe prolong rebuilding my right arm.
IMO the rod should be doing most of the work in a cast not the arm and shoulder. My advice is over line them or put those ultra fast rods away and save your arms for another day.
FWIW the Sage PT
I overweight my rods by 1-2 weights for 5wt and up. It not only allows me to throw larger flies and cast in the wind, but reduces the number of reels I need. My 8wt rods either have reels for 8 or 10 line. I can use those on my
Brian I haven’t used the rods but I do use the lines on an Xi2. What I can say about them is that they will make 60ft + casts effortlessly. What really impressed me the most was how they don’t dump at the end like my SA Streamer sink tips tend to do. In other words it’ll turn over a 8′ level 12 # leader and big fly with no problem. It also lands on the water much quieter then I expected.
I’m pretty sure it would be the bomb for punching a big popper under a dock for Jacks or in the mangroves for whatever. If I were to take a trip to the salt this line would be on my reels no doubt whatsoever. I’d also have an Equator taper as well. If it seems I’m being partial to Sage/Rio lines I am. They really do work wonderful on the Xi2 rod line.
I know Monic has a clear line that is for salt and I thought it was a floater.
There was an article on Midcurrent last week about the new Courtland line.This is a potentially enormous subject, as you can tell. It’s also one with a lot of history. Probably the most innovative guys at exploring fly line weighting and tapering are over in the spey set. I’d say Jim Vincent, who founded Rio Products, is the acknowledged guru at this. Back in the 1980s and 1990s, before commercially available spey lines were being produced, Vincent and his cohort of spey buddies started splicing together big chunks of different pieces of fly line, inventing their own tapers in a time period when most anglers still used double-taper lines (the absolute worst performing lines because they are the most generic).
They would cut off a length of fly line, strip the coating from one end, then run the core up into the coating of the other piece and glue them. I’ve never totally understood how, but they were able to make lines strong enough to fight salmon with that were literally glued together inside the cores.
From those experiments developed lines like the Rio Windcutter, and arguably the whole basis of complex fly line tapering came out of that set (others were also experimenting, but few with such an elaborate series of steps, etc.)
Back when manufacturers were seeking a standard way to name fly lines (the “weight” system as opposed to an older alphanumeric scheme), they hit upon measuring the first thirty feet of line and then labeling certain grain windows as this or that weight. Thus, lines whose first thirty feet were between about 135-145 grains were labeled “5 weights.”
When every line on the market is a DT or a simple weight forward, that system made sense. It became a de facto rod classification system as well, because the rods meant to cast a 135-145 grain line could now be called “five weight” rods to match the five weight lines.
But when anglers (like Jim Vincent) opened the Pandora’s box of new tapers, that system ceased to make as much sense. If a line is meant to cast best at distances of 60-80′, it makes little difference what the first thirty feet of the line weighs, because the angler is most likely going to be carrying 45′ or so out of the tip top, and he’s going to want a thin running line behind it to let the head shoot better. Consequently, distance taper lines (just to take an example) are often WAY out of their rated line classifications when measured on a grain scale under the AFFTA system.
Manufacturers take this into account in labeling their lines, doing the math in advance for you. A 5 weight distance line is meant for a 5 weight rod, but keep in mind that it would only be “meant for” that rod if your goals were the same as the manufacturers’ assumptions.
Distance lines tend to use the principle that the further the rod bends and the greater load it is under, the faster the head will fly and thus the longer the cast will go. So, most distance lines are overweight for their rated size. Is this wrong? No; on the contrary, as long as you want to do what the manufacturers think you want to do, it should be just right.
Unfortunately, manufacturers of rods and reels have allowed themselves to get into a bit of an arms race. Anglers demand longer casts but don’t want to work on improving their mechanics. So manufacturers of rods develop stiffer rods which will throw line at higher speeds with a given line weight. Anglers then realize that the rod doesn’t bend much in close (since there’s not enough of the line out the tip to bend the stiffer rod), so they turn to the line companies and expect a fix. The line companies oblige by making their lines a “half size” heavier, or exceeding the grain window for the rating of the line. Rod manufacturers then turn around and start all over, making an even stiffer rod. By any objective measurement, Sage’s TCR 5 weight really acted like more of a 7 weight, to take an example of a pretty egregious standards-breaker.
What does this mean for you? It means your rods have a lot wider range of capabilities than you may realize. Line ratings are based on assumptions about how you will fish that may not be true. I frequently overline my rods by two or three line ratings, especially for throwing shooting heads. I want the rod to bend as deeply as possible in order to throw a long way with a minimal amount of effort on my part. Conversely, I never underline my rods, because in my opinion most graphite rods have gotten too stiff for ordinary fishing conditions anyway, and certainly don’t need any help by having less weight pulling on them. My Scott G2 is a very medium-actioned rod, which is why I fish it so often.
The point of all this is to give you an idea of just how much subjectivity is involved here. Manufacturer’s ratings are always a good starting point, but they should not be considered the end-all be-all when lining your rod.
Zach
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