Could use a bit of help..Controlling hunter orange

[John Bennett]

I shot some field trials on the Sat. Even way up here Ike made his precense known. While the rain held off until late in the day, it was either overcast and what light did get through was crap.

That said, I still did reasonably well.
Anyways after my first cull I started working on some images. I stopped after a dozen as I’m just not happy ( or sure ) I’m getting the hunter orange right. This is the first time I’ve ever shot anything like it. In alot of images it’s clipped. I’ve tried de saturating the Oranges a bit in the raw file but still not sure I like what I’m seeing.

Would appreciate some thoughts on it before I go back to processing the majority of the images

Does it look off to you? Does it look off  but ok?
Does it look too bright? If so what might you try….Desaturating the Oranges more? Reduce brighness/exposure globally?

Thank god they didnt want me using flash. I can only imagine how the Orange would have picked that up.

A few images.

ISO 400 f3.5

ISO 400 f3.5

ISO 400 f4.0

ISO 400 f4.0

ISO 400 f2.8

ISO 400 f5.6

[John Pavoncello]

John,
Looks good to me, are you worried about the tone or the saturation of the orange?
The first image looks a little off, but the entire image is just a little under exposed. Other than that, I think they are fine. The blaze orange is going to look different under varying light.
You could always use your wand tool, select the blaze only, and then use image>adjustments>selective color to get the tones you’re looking for

[John Bennett]

Thanks John.

Mostly the saturation, but in a few when the sun did peek through the tones as well. The best I can equate it to is if you’ve ever shot Male Northern Cardinals you almost always end up desaturating the reds a bit.

If I leave them as is, they are clipped and over saturated (atleast to my eyes). So I triedd desaturating a bit but then it looks washed and approaching yellow (to my eyes anyways).

I tried cooling a couple images but didnt like what that was doing globally, so left most where they were shot which was between 5,600 and 5,800.

You could always use your wand tool, select the blaze only, and then use image>adjustments>selective color to get the tones you’re looking for

Thanks ! that might be the ticket

[david king]

You might try using hue saturation command in PS. Once you get it worked out you could save it and use it when you needed.

[Eric DeWitt]

Most seem a bit washed out to me, hunter orange is a very bright color, and usually very saturated.

[John Bennett]

Thanks guys. Did more, I’m happier with these.
Heres a few of my favorites.

[imghttp://jben.zenfolio.com/img/v3/p607894387-3.jpg][/img]

Look closely…do you see it?

It’s about to catch a load.

Possibly my fav from the day

If your curious the gallery is here
http://jben.zenfolio.com/p468487807

[John Bennett]

Hi Bill, thanks for the honesty. Sorry to hear Ike displaced you, hope everything ok and your back soon.

The first image by far had the most corrective work done, possibly because its underexposed. The 2nd batch hardly any, especially with regards to colour correction. I sort of went with Erics advice and didnt pay much attention to how the Oranges came out, it is supposed to be bright and gaudy. Concenrated on everything else .

The thing possibly to keep in mind is as I said. In most images the vest are clipped ( the Red channel in the RGB). The only way I know of too correct that “in camera” is too underexpose every image by 1/3 to 2/3rds. Great for the Orange vest, not so great for the rest for the image. I’ve never really came across this type of exposure/colour problem before. The exception might be male northern cardinals. The solution for them is to desaturate a bit. I tried that in the 1st batch but found it started pushing them towards yellow. I think if I want to “correct” the Orange Johns suggestion might be the one, but as with Erics maybe I shouldnt try.

With regards to calibration. How do other colours/skin tones look? They (whites, skin tones, grass and trees) look pretty much dead on to me but now Im curious.

Also keep in mind different guys vest were of different material or age, (fade). Look at this guys, back and front, hat, his dogs collar and the other persons sleeve. There 4 distinct shades of Orange. This image is almost right out of the box other than a contrast adjustment.

So Im wondering if its a differnce in our monitors, or as above that few vest were that deeper orange, or if its a result of the clipping in te RGBs

[Ben Cochran]

Hey John, as always; great shots. Few know as much as you do about shooting with DSLR and photography in general so, these are just my opinions and not meant as advise:

It looks more like a Kelvin thing, going on in your images. Granted red and derivatives of red, especially the brighter side, are very difficult to shoot against dark greens. As you know, it pretty much stretches the maximum capabilities of the design in both the sensors and limitations of lenses. As Eric mentioned, sometimes it is best to leave well enough alone but I kind of noticed something in your images. I don’t know if this is from post edit or from the original shots. Granted, everyone says that WB, when shooting RAW, is not all that important but with your highly technical shooting parameters, I think that on camera WB is more important.

Example: Your first image seems to be a bit cold but look at the hair color on the dog, I am guessing that it is close to correct but still just a bit cold. In the second photograph, I am also taking for granted that it is the same dog, the hair seems to be a lot warmer. Only you know which one is more correct but I am guessing somewhere between the 2 photographs would be more correct. In the first photograph, the hunters hat seems to have more crisp data but again, a bit on the cold side. In the second, the hat seems to not be as crisp but I think this is due to bleed from the much stronger color frequency, with the added strength of a much warmer Kelvin.

I am just guessing here but it seems that a Kelvin between the 2 images would help you retain more of the crispness, of the highly reflective oranges, with more retained data in this colors as well. Only you know this answer as I can only guess, did the greens have that much yellow and warmth in them, in all of the other photographs? It also may just be my monitor but some of the shots do seem a bit dark, as well.

For publication purposes, the only advice that I have would be; ask one of your art directors how they prefer these type of photographs. The may prefer them a bit colder, so that they can get as much crisp orange color, as they can just paint in a ¼ CTO layer around the oranges.

As you stated, it could also just be the fact that a lot of data is lost when downsized for posting on the web. Nonetheless, great photographs and as always, I am a fan of your work  :).

[Eric DeWitt]

I think the second set of images definalty looks better than the first.  The other advice that pops into my head reading this, is to forget trying to make it look exactly right, just make it look good – if that makes sense?

heres a couple shots and a gallery froma pheasant hunt i was on with lots of orange.. in the gallery a few were edited, most are directly out of camera.  The ones i edited for keepers, i know one of the main changes i made was warming them up quite a bit.

http://lucidarc.com/photo/tailfeathers06/index.html

[John Bennett]

Thanks guys.
Very nice images Eric, and yeah it does make sense.

I was on a shoot yesterday with the assoc. editor and the Art Director for the magazine I’m doing stuff for. We actually discussed the problem of accurately rendering hunter orange. His advice as not to try and correct it. Aside from aforementioned difficulties ( desaturating leading towards yellows, etc,etc) apparently theres another common problem getting it print accurately. Most of that I didn’t understand, something about technical terms like “line something or other”, doodads and gizmos 🙂

What I took from it and how I interpreted it was. Even if I corrected it to be spot on in my files, it still ,ay not tansfer to print as well. Best to leave it as shot and let them deal with it.
************

Very astute eyes Ben.
I cant recall specifics but in my first batch, one step I “tried” was “cooling a couple images”.  How much I can’t recal, maybe 100 or 150 points. Most images had Kelvin values of between 5600 and 5800 out of the box. So I would have cooled a couple down to around 5400. It is the same hunter and same Vizsla(sp?) and now that you’ve pointed it out, there is an obvious difference in its coat that goes beyond the difference in exposures.

Im 90% sure that first image was one such attempt. You can see it in the sky actually. Its not the grey of an overcast day ( theres a very subtle, light touch of Grad ND in it as well).

Thanks and love your work to. I think I still have a long ways to go before I can control/master light the way you guys can. I’m still larning this stuff.

[Ben Cochran]

That is a col shot Eric, love the DOF!!

That is great that you talked with your AD and also with the Editor, John. Truthfully, shooting, as an assignment photographer is a completely different beast than shooting for pretty photographs to post on the net, I am not talking about composition or the ability to just get the shot here. I shoot as a full time assignment photographer and the most valuable lesson that I learned is; shoot for the AD’s and GA’s (there is a second approach but I will cover that later). Granted, shooting this way does not always produce amazing color rich photographs, that can draw praising comments from other’s, but as your AD said; “there are particular issues that have to be taken into account for final publication”. There are, now, commercial printers that will print RGB but the bulk of publication is in CMYK. Converting to CMYK is much more than just selecting it in PS and choosing CMYK profile, as they have to go off of the numeric values. There is no true “black, in CMYK as it is more of a blend and the gray scales “have” to have the proper numerical values as they do not print the same as seen on a monitor.

The second approach is in an earned one: A lot of the photographers, working on large budget assignment’s, will either have their own GA’s on staff or are very astute with their own PS expert skills, with a pronounced understanding of the CMYK conversion parameter’s. This is earned by the tear sheets, in the photographer’s book, and supported by the AD’s as original works and post edits of the photographer. This is the whole reason that I have studied and learned PS to the level that I am now at, I don’t care about negative comments about using PS, as I would much rather just get the work and get paid.

As you know, getting the shot is the most important matter in assignment work and consistency in getting the shot is what increases the value of the photographer. Moving up the ladder, to large circulation assignment’s, PS skills and/or having your own signature style produced by the photographers staff GA, reduces that lag time in post edit for the publisher and also increases the value of the free lance photographer. This is the whole reason that I had committed the time and energy to learning PS to, close of an equal that of, expert level. It is all part of my business plan as I am nowhere near the level that I want to be at yet. The next part of my business plan is a very large self-funded assignment that I will shoot in Europe next year. Back to my point though: On larger assignments, the dark room skills are equal to that of the digital dark room skills, it is part of the progression and rather we like it or not, it is the future and present.

It is hard to critique your, intended for publication and conversion to CMYK, photographs, as they will always be compared to a post-edited SRGB or RGB post. We can comment on your composition and Kelvin’s but the absolute advice came from your AD, basically and I paraphrase; get the shot and get it with the best contrast and saturation possible, with crisp sharpness, let us worry about the corrections in post edit as it has to be done certain to a certain way.

I stay on a focus of PS software, as it is the most commonly used software in publication and publication houses. You turned this into a very educational and interesting thread John, a very enlightening thread that highlights the difference between shooting for great looking and completed RGB photographs ~vs~ shooting for CMYK and publisher’s. I also, go back to the topic of understanding color frequencies, as your assignment is one of the best illustration on how important it is to understand this in comparison to the true weakness of sensor’s and why pro lenses are even more important. Anything less than a pro lens and I bet you would have even more problems with the colors. Nonetheless, you did a great job and those are great photographs, I can visualize what the final’s, in CMYK publication, will look like and it only reinforces the extremely high skill level that you have as a photographer!!

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