Best body < 1k...?

[dusty montgomery]

My opinion, which many of you know is not much of an informed one yet.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/542177-REG/Canon_2756B001_EOS_Rebel_XSi_a_k_a_.html

It looks like this camera has more features than others in the Canon lineup for less money.
Dusty

[John Pavoncello]

Dusty,
For less than $1000 you can pick up a used 20D or 30D. Much better choice then the Rebel. Look to KEH or on Sportsshooter.com

[John Bennett]

As John mentioned if you start by looking at $900.00 can get you, in Canon theres the XSI or the 30D. The 30D I’ve actually seen for far less used. A used 40D might be had for about that price. The XSI looks like a fantastic entry body. Its got some new features over its predessors and has some new stuff previously only available in the 10 to 40D line.

But where to spend the $$?
Thats a tough call and not one I’d be comfortable suggesting to *someone else*.

The thing to remember is that the manufactorers are always going to keep some important aspects back to separate the lines. Two that come to my mind right off the bat are Noise control and AF performance.

The AF performance, especially “AI servo” in the XT/XTI are not upto the 30/40Ds. Theres no reason to think the XSI will be any better. Likewise as nice as the 40D is, its not as reliable or good as my 1D. I can say that having owned and used all of those.

Ditto Noise. With my XT I hated shooted at ISO 800. With my 30/40D I didnt mind but felt that was the limit. With my 1D I dont hesitate to use ISO 1,000 and if for personal useage I dont mind ISO 1,600.
In the never ending race to add MP the manufactorers keep adding MPs to these small sensors. Their solution to keep noise control the same ( more MPs = more noise) has been to increase the strength of the AA filter. While that keeps the noise at the same level despite the increased MPs it make the images look softer..That means you need to sharpen more in post. I noticed a huge difference between my 30d and my 40D. So while the noise was pretty much the same despite the addition of 2 MP, the AA filter was strengthened and that made the images look softer, which meant I needed to increase the sharpening.

Another is 1/3 stop ISO. With the XT line your limited to full stop increments, with the 30/40D you get interpolated 1/3 increments, which while its not true 1/3 stop increments as in the 1D lines, its still better to have than choice than not.

Other things like fps, buffering capacity, build construction, etc, etc should be factored in.

But some of the new features sure do look nice.
We’re it me, Id have a hard time deciding between and XSI a 30D or 40D.

[dusty montgomery]

Being a neophyte, I have been sternly warned against buying used gear from someone/someplace I do not know. That being said, last night I noticed that Canon’s rebate program went into effect recently on B&H. The 40D has been discounted by $200, making it only $139 more that the XSi. I compared the two on the website, only understanding the meaning of about half of the features. I would guess that the 40D would be the better choice; I will know more after having completed Understanding Exposure. (Great advice from a few threads ago, btw)

I know I am buying Canon as I already have some lenses, and I do not want to buy used. So, is the 40D the best route, perhaps a camera I can grow into.

Thanks guys for your help and explanations; it really is a great help.

Dusty

[John Bennett]

Dusty I get really nervous about suggesting where someone should spend their hard earned coin.

Were it *me*, *Id* get the 40D. To me it currently represents what might be the best value for the dollar on the market and that includes Nikons bodies.

The XSI has some features previoulsy only available in the 40D and some new stuff including the extra 2 MP and is cheaper and on and on.

But I really don’t think Canon will have improved its AF while in “AI servo”. Even in the 40D they claimed “improved” AF and while to my eye it acquired initial focus a wee bit faster than the 30D, its ability to track moving targets while in AI Servo….which is really “predictive focus” was exactly the same. To *me* it was wanting and why I eventually shelled out for a 1DMKIIn. That kind of stuff is important to *me*, as is high FPS ( 3.5 vs 5.0 vs 6.0 vs 8.5) and the ability to get acceptable noise at high ISOs, but what I deem acceptable may be more stringent than the next or maybe the next person simply doesnt need to shoot at ISO 800 and higher very often.

then there are other things like buffer capacity..when you shoot at highframe rates you need larger buffers and you want them to dump faster.

ISO increments

more focus points

etc

The 40D is Canons mid level line between consumer ( XT line ) and the Pro lines (1D).
Its going to be a better body…question is….do you really need/want some of that?

Not for me to say.

/edit add
Should clarify and say.

When I say the XTs and then the 40Ds “AF” is wanting , its not thats its bad or “wanting”. Both are capable of getting shots. It that they were “wanting” to *me* for the type of shooting I often do which is very demanding of the hawrdware.

Rebel XT

40D Buffleheads are small fast movers

The XT I doubt could get that shot

1DMKIIN

The 40D I doubt could get that shot. I know, I spent countless hours and hundreds of frames trying with 30 and 40D.

I got that the first day I was shooting with the 1DMKIIN

[dusty montgomery]

John,
Thanks for the added comments, and please do not be hesitant in your suggestions as I would never blame any lack of camera function on you, or anyone else. I think we both know any error or inability to get the shot would be on me, the operator. While I would love to jump right in to a full-frame or even Canon’s flagship, I really have no justification nor the financial means. I know I will sacrifice with any mid-level body I buy, but to be honest, I am not sure I will even be aware of the sacrifices. I believe I am just going to have to jump in, buy one, and learn from there. At this point, I probably do not “need” all of the functions afforded by the 40D, but for $139 more, why not? I imagine It is a good one for me to “grow into.”
Your help is appreciated.
Dusty

[kendal larson]

Mr. Bennett –

Just a quickie, as I needed to pass this along; I hate you and your MKII.

😉

Kendal

(….I need more work so I can upgrade my body – that blue jay is so very sweet)

[John Bennett]

Lol kendal.
Dont hate the player, hate the game. 🙂

The 30/40D AF is nice as is the XTs and thats why I hesitate to use words like wanting, but the truth of the matter is more and more I felt like its AI Servo was holding me back. A classic example and it happened many times was being out shooting with some guys who had the MKIIN or MKIII and in the extra split second it took me to get focus acquisition, they were ripping off frames. Even the 1D has limits and I lose focus while in Servo or I dont get it fast enough and miss the opportunity but again, relatively speaking, it less an “issue” as with the 30/40 as with the XT. Because sooooooo much of my wildife/avain shooting is fast paced action thats a big issue. If I was more of a static shooter it wouldnt be.

I still lust and dream about that 500 f4
/sigh

Rumor is the MKIIIn is coming this fall. Should that occur you could probably find moderately used MKIIns at a fraction of what they cost new. All the 1D bodies have shutter lives of 250,000 and even if the shutter count is high, replacing one isnt *that* expensive. Problem is finding a seller you can trust.

[kendal larson]

Lol kendal.
Dont hate the player, hate the game. 🙂

The 30/40D AF is nice as is the XTs and thats why I hesitate to use words like wanting, but the truth of the matter is more and more I felt like its AI Servo was holding me back. A classic example and it happened many times was being out shooting with some guys who had the MKIIN or MKIII and in the extra split second it took me to get focus acquisition, they were ripping off frames. Even the 1D has limits and I lose focus while in Servo or I dont get it fast enough and miss the opportunity but again, relatively speaking, it less an “issue” as with the 30/40 as with the XT. Because sooooooo much of my wildife/avain shooting is fast paced action thats a big issue. If I was more of a static shooter it wouldnt be.

I still lust and dream about that 500 f4
/sigh

Rumor is the MKIIIn is coming this fall. Should that occur you could probably find moderately used MKIIns at a fraction of what they cost new. All the 1D bodies have shutter lives of 250,000 and even if the shutter count is high, replacing one isnt *that* expensive. Problem is finding a seller you can trust.

Roger that tip about the used MKIIns – appreciate that mucho.

I was a bit irked – had picked up that 17-40 …. Adorama – and now, only a week after I receive mine, Canon offers a $50 rebate on it.

grrrrrr – classic luck for me.

[kendal larson]

Oh – and Dusty – if budget is your issue, you can pick up a used XTi from that place.

$399

Hard to say how many times that shutter’s been released, but still….might be worth pondering.

http://www.lensrentals.com/item/canon-digital-rebel-xti

Kendal

[Eric DeWitt]

All good comments… also, make sure you go somewhere and touch/feel the cameras.  The 40D is going to be much more robust, heavier, etc., than the xti.  Maybe not that big of a deal, but if most of your shots are going to be of the kids at disney type family trip type of thing, the weight and size may be an issue.  I tried carrying the 30D for a day at disney this past spring break and i hated it.

Also, damn good bird shots john, what glass is that with?

[John Bennett]

The Red Tail was taken with the 100-400 L, the other two with the 400 5.6 L

More often than not its little things, that come with time or people pointing things out. Shooting birds isnt as easy as it might seem. Their small (relatively), fast, and often constantly moving.

I’m a fairly firm beleiver that as important as it is to get “good” glass, its hard to buy “bad” glass and often what people say is bad is a result of buying glass that didnt meet their expectations.
Is it right to “bad mouth” a lens becuase its not as fast focusing as some others, when shooting birds in flight or Deer flying across a field? No its just being asked to do too much and while there are better lens suited to tat type of thing, it doesnt make the lens bad.

Same with bodies. Even my 1D has limits, should I question the 1DmkIIn and 400 f5.6 when targetting Tree swallows in flight? Their super fast, super small and erratic. To get 1 good shot I might delete 30 or 40.

The 100-400 L has a bad rep amongst wildlife/Bird shooters and I dont get it. People say its soft, slow and alot of other stufff. I thnik its a great lens., loved mine.

XT and 100-400 L

Same

Same

Is it the lens that bd or is itthat its often asked to do too much or is compared to lenses made almost speciifcally for those task?

the only thing I would ask Eric is what or how much are you sking of the lens/body? Some lenses can handle cropping better than others, some focus faster than others. While the AF capablities of different bodies is different, they can all do it. What differs is how reliably and how often and if you stay within the hardwares limits than .

the rest is practise imo. Its not easy getting focus on small birds even ones that dont fly but flit from branch to branch. Largert Birds, which fill more of the frame need larger DoFs, bu tha can be a prblem due te ned to keep Shutter speeds high, usully higher than 1/500th. Birds, even static shots are rarely actually still and with long glass motion blur is magnified as is “shake”.

there alot of little things like uing center point focus only, keepin SSs high, having a good idea of how much DoF you need given the distance/size of te subject. How much cropping you can get away it, exposing for birds with blacks and whites, exposing the unerside of birds, good BGs, “bokeh” all are little things, that add up and come with practise, like anything else really be it Macro or Landscape or people photography.

[Eric DeWitt]

Well, i’ve got the 100-400 in the kit already, so thats not the problem!!!

[John Bennett]

Eric.
If you have any questions, or even if come across a specific image that your not sure why its not what you we’re expecting shoot me a pm. Sometimes its usually just a small thing. I’m no “pro” and there are hundreds (if not thousands) of Bird Shooters far more accomplished than I but I have learned a thing or two about it.

One thing that always drives me nuts is people often say..It’s not the car, it’s the driver. Meaning people so full of themselves they think the reason they get such stunning images is simply them.
BS.

Its equal parts imo, sometimes more the driver, sometimes more the car. I’m not going to delude myself into thinking otherwise. That Blue Jay for example is almost impossible with anything other than the fastest focusing body and the fastest focusing lenses. While not impossible its a 1 in a million without the right hardware.

Canon 30D

Want to guess how many hours and how many deletions it took to get that 1 shot???

The 30D is more than capable for *most* bird shooting. It will struggle and is largely incapable of getting small fast movers in flight like Blue Jays, Cardinals and the like but anything bigger/slower its just fine. I used it for a year and in fact its largely the camera I learned on.

The 100-400 L
One of the best lenses on the market imo.
No, its not quite as sharp as the 400 f5.6 L, but the difference is so small as to be rediculous that people slag the lens. When I bought my 400 5.6 I took test shots with my 100-400 and the stores 400 5.6 of telephone poles ( the itty bitty “pebble” like texture) at 50 feet and f5.6 . At normal resolution I doubt anyone could discern any difference what so ever. It wasn’t until I cropped to 100% that I was able to see a difference.

So that then is just a small limition of the 100-400 L and its likely true of any zoom lens vs a prime lens.
They cant hold up to croping as well as the primes.

Birders crop a alot, its simply a result of the constant struggle to have enough reach. I shoot with a Bird fanatic. He owns the 400 f5.6, the 500 f4.0, the Sigmonster 300-800 and 1.4 and 2.0x TCs.

He’s ordered Canons new 800mm f5.6

Its just a fact with Birds. You never have enough reach no matter how much you actually have.
************

Does it focus as fast?
No, and thats the reason I ultimately switched to the prime. Alot of what I do and enjoy is fast action.
But thats *me* not the lens. Fact is one day I plan on acquiring another 100-400 L, it’s simply unbeleivably versatile and sweet.

Try stopping down, when theres enough light, to f8. Thats the 1-400s sweet spot.

Odd that my pics taken with it are showing up as red xs but thats why I switched from pbase, that happens sometimes 🙂

[Aaron Otto]

John your photo’s are inspiring.

[Author]

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