RAW, is it just me???
- This topic has 39 replies, 14 voices, and was last updated Dec 22, 2008 at 6:51 am by
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I did a stream side photo shoot this weekend, we had great light all day and the fishing was good. I took a few pics in jpeg to test the set up and test a few things, then switched to RAW for best post production. I shot most of it in aperture priority, trying to increase the depth of field, but kept checking what automatic wanted; so that I wasn’t too far off what the camera believed was best. I had the sun behind the subject for most of the shots, so I fire the flash to reduce the shadows, as I said, the light was good, so it wasn’t really needed.
I found that the jpegs that I shot to start with were all sharp, crisp and in focus. However, I have to toss all but 4 or 5 of the rest of them… they are all out of focus.
I was watching for focus through the view finder, check every 4th or 5th shot, zooming right in, but they looked good on the tiny LCD.
Then on my PC they look soft and out of focus, except when I change something and the screen refreshes, they look stunning, most are keepers…
I am lost…
Shooting raw or jpeg has no impact on focus. Its just a file format.
RAW files though, vs a jpeg of the same image do look softer.
The jpeg has had sharpening and contrast applied to it in camera. The amount determined by your presets. Whereas the raw has had nothing done it. Its a “digital negative”.Also, images on your LCD will always appear sharper than they actually are. One its a tiny LCD vs a monitor and two they are bascially jpegs ( sharpening applied).
And that sharpening and contrast means you are sacrificing image data (lossy). As I recall, there are also options as to how large a rendering of a thumbnail and/or rendering of the image is used in viewing to make your changes to that file. The larger the file you work on, the slower the rendering,
What camera and lens are you using Mike ?
I agree with everyone above, but would like to add that sharpening should be done shot by shot depending on use of the photo.
For example, web post shots can get a big smack of the stuff where large prints look better IMHO with less.
Over sharpening and punching too much contrast are very common mistakes I see in peoples digital photos and I think you will get much better shots if you learn to do them on a shot by shot basis.Most raw converters have a default setting and most raws need a bit to bring out proper detail.
I like you shots BTW..
www.dsaphoto.com
A picture is thousand words that takes less than a second while a thousand words is a picture that takes a month.
Once again I am learning… thank you for your input.
David, this was on an Olympus e500, with a 55-200 Sigma lens with a UV filter.
After studying a few of them, I have some composition issues I need to iron out, and that impacted on the focus, but the others, it seems like I got depth of field but with the drawback of a soft image.
I understand that each one needs to be developed individually, and have been doing them one by one.
I think I have a decent workflow…
Here are 3 things I have learnt in post production.
1. Most of the images need to be 2 full points sharper.
2. Most images need Natural as the picture mode.
3. Contrast is what seems to make the picture jump.Nothing can make up for poor composition and I need to figure out why I was not focusing correctly…
I’ve not shot the Olympus before or used that lens, but at the long end it would be nearly equv. of a 300mm on a full frame camera and that’s getting very long for hand held photography.
Getting high quality pictures with long lenses is hit & miss and you need to take care to get the focus right.
You also need much higher shutter speeds to get sharp pix out of one.
As a rule of thumb on full frames you need twice or more the length of the lens in shutter speed to freeze lens shake.
So a 300 would really need to be shot at over 500th of a second or even a 1000th to work well.
(everyone is different in how slow they can shoot – personally I drink to much coffee and need the high speeds. ;))With longer lenses you also get much shallower depth of field or the amount of focus depth, for example a 300mm F4 lens shooting a full length shot of an angler might only have 2 inches of sharp focus from front to back.
(God, I hate expaining depth of field ! – anyone please feel free to help or tell me to shut up if you know this stuff !www.dsaphoto.com
A picture is thousand words that takes less than a second while a thousand words is a picture that takes a month.
Thank you David, your comments make a lot of sence…
And I have done quite a lot of reading on DOF, which is why I was trying to extend it.
I shot most of the pics at about 100mm, trying to avoid that 200mm zoom, which on a four thirds mount is X2 = 400mm…
I think I am going to get a 105 macro lense and use that as my standard lense, it should give me better dof, with limited zoom.
The fixed zoom would be a good idea, I bet it’s sharper then the zoom and finds focus better for having a larger aperture..
Make sure you post some samples..
www.dsaphoto.com
A picture is thousand words that takes less than a second while a thousand words is a picture that takes a month.
So…how were photos “sharpened” in “the old days” in the darkroom?
Mike to expand a bit on some of the things David has mentioned.
Your DoF is determined by three things.
1) Aperture
2) Distance to subject
3) Focal length.Thus an image with a subject at 15feet, shot at f5.6 with a 200mm will have considerably less DoF than the same variables shot at 100mm.
Many people really underestimate the DoF when using longer focal lengths. If your DoF is really narrow, even something as simple as changing the plane relative to the subject can throw parts of your image oof (out of focus).
For illustrative purposes only. Heres a nice shot I ruined by missing my focal point ( the eye). This shot was taken at 560mm, about 15 feet to subject and f8. Note how the body is nice and sharp but the facial features, in particular the eye are a bit soft. The DoF here is quite likely less than 1 inch
assuming you shot those at f5.6, 100mm and 15 feet, your DoF is approximately 1.5feet.
http://www.dofmaster.com/dofjs.htmlSame parameters but at 200mm, your DoF would have been .35 feet. Thats 4 inches. Nailing your critical focus point is extrmely important when dealing with fairly narrow DoFs.
I much prefer the artistic look to narrow DoFs. All else being equal I try for as little DoF as possible. Lok through most of the pictures I take and you’ll find all kinds of examples.
I am not fan of focusing and recomposing for these reasons.
When your dealing with narrow DoFs theres very little margin of error.Place your camera on a table top, and draw a straight line out from the lens thats perpindicular to the element. Actually somewhere on your body there should be a something that looks like a T sqaure. Now assume your DoF is 6 inches out at 20 feet. Change the plane of your body by swinging 20 degrees left/right ( the act of recomposing).
Youve just greatly changed whats within the DoF and what isnt.
Take the time to lear to use different focus points. Mine has 45. Its abit much at first, having to train your fingers to quickly dial in the one you want ( i need to use two wheels).
But it pays dividends in the long run.
Shake.
At 100mm its not overly hard to avoid shake, however regardless of your focal length, there is a point (SS) at which each individual will start encountering it. Being capable of shooting at slower shutter speeds relative to the focal legth and hand holding takes alot of practise. To get a sense of what your tolerance is set your lens at 100mm or 200mm in less than ideal light. Typical indoor flourescent light should do it. Adjust your ISO and aperture until you shooting at 1/focal length. Take a dozen shots….Change your settings by opening the lens such that your at 1/ 2x focal length…take a dozen shots.
Compare results.Sharpenening.
As others have noted, how much to apply is largely dependant on final output. At the end of the day, sharpening can be thought of as applying contrast to edges. Play around, after awhile you start to develop a feel for how much or how little is needed.As a general rule I apply two applications. The first is a light dose to my master file. Then if I copy that image for web display or a smaller print (upto 8.5 x 11) another light dose.
Perhaps the best way to learn is to intentionally over do it. So you cna see the artifacts, and other effects heavy handed sharpening results in.
As for RAWs.
I do get RAW files that could probably pass muster with little to no adjustments, however if they are improved with light touches.Mike,
What you need to remember is that even though you are shooting in raw mode, the image you see on the LCD is a jpeg representation of how that image might look with the camera image values used. These include WB, sat, contrast, and yes, in-camera sharpening. With the raw capture, these are all bypassed, obviously, so the LCD image is irrelevant. You might choose different values in the converter anyway.
A low-pass capture sharpening should be done immediately after importing the image into PS from the raw converter. Otherwise, all output sharpening should be the last step in the workflow per usage and size.
By the way, I think the images are great and with some PP sharpening, you’ll be happy with them.
A low-pass capture sharpening should be done immediately after importing the image into PS from the raw converter —-
Can I get more details on how you do this? I currently seem to like the Aperture converters better, but I don’t play favorites when it comes to conversions.
ShannonCapture/low pass sharpening is a step thats implemented to offset the blurring imparted to your image by the low pass filter or AA filter. All DSLRs have them, some are stornger than others. A body with a weak AA filter will produce images that look sharp right out of the box, over time all manufactorers have been strengthening it.
So alot of people (and Im one) use a little sharpening to the master file that restores the softening of edge contrast that occurs as a result of the low pass fiter. When to apply it differs, some apply it before any other adjustements, other apply after tonal corrections but before resising/resampled, most concur it should be done after any noise reduction.
Again, sharpening adds edge contrast.
Amount= How much contrast to add to edges
Radius:= How many pixels out from the edge will be effected
Threshold= Defines the edge, how much variance between tones equals an edge.As a general rule of thumb I use
Amount: 200
Radius: 0.3
Threshold: 0As my capture sharpening
the key is its a light touch that restores softening imparted by the AA filter done to your master file. So before any resising or resampling that occurs for “output”.
So your workflow employs two stages of sharpening.
Low pass: Restores edge contrast to the master file
Output: dependant on the files end useage (print size/web display/etc)Shoooowwwww, so how do you guys practice??? Do you set yourself task and goals and then work on them till you get it right?????
Shoooowwwww, so how do you guys practice??? Do you set yourself task and goals and then work on them till you get it right?????
www.dsaphoto.com
A picture is thousand words that takes less than a second while a thousand words is a picture that takes a month.
Sometimes when Im bored and theres nothing to shoot, but mostly its just experience (still ongoin) gained over time.
Lately Ive been trying to capture an image of a Duck coming in to land directly at me in vertical. Hundreds of images later I’ve learned.
If the ducks too far away, I dont get the detail I want nor fill enough of the frame. DoF is fine, nor do I clip wings
if the ducks too close my DoF usually isnt large enough. In order to “freeze” them I want to be above 1/1000th. Depending on the strength of light stopping down for more DoF is difficult, if I want 1/1000th or more. Also, if its too close the wings get clipped, …often extend off the frame. Again, Im shooting vertical with for a potential cover. In Horizontal this isnt a problem
So balancing getting close enough to fill 30%-40% of the frame without clipping wings, using a focus point thats a little below center (vertical framing) to allow for headlines and logos, having high enough SSs *and* large enough DoF.
Unless Im lucky early in the process, the only real way to know when to take the shots and when not to…is to take hundreds…Trial and error.
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