Orvis photo contest
- This topic has 23 replies, 12 voices, and was last updated Nov 7, 2009 at 1:53 am by
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I have seen some terrific pics on here (including from our host Zach and his bride) and thought this may be of interest…
David –
Not to argue with you, but when I read this my first thought was, hmm, that’s twice the rate any fly fishing magazine pays for its cover.
What Orvis is doing here is far from new, as it’s a common way to gather a truckload of images to do with as they please, and essentially pay nothing out.
Read the text in the contest rules: Entrants must click to “accept” the terms of use listed below, which will include very broad permission for Orvis and its agents to post any entered photo on websites and to use it anywhere in any context, including advertising, without additional compensation. The terms of use are incorporated by reference and made part of these rules.
Be prepared to have Orvis take your image behind the tool shed and do with it as they please, whenever they please, for as long as they want. You might even be their next nation-wide print ad, thanks to a contest entry.
Photogs can do as they please, and I’m not gonna play the whiney guy here, but just be aware of what you’re relinquishing by entering this contest.
I don’t know what the rate would be exactly. It should be calculated on how and where it would be used. Is it a one time use? Is it a cover etc? Will it be used on the web. I think ad photography probably pays a little better than editorial. The Orvis image standard is quite high based on the catalogs that I have seen. This may just be a fun contest to engage customers but a 1000.00 of product is not the same as 1000.00 cash. The winner might want a pair of G4 waders!
Maybe someone who has sold some images for a similar use could weigh in and inform us on a fee amount. Did the back cover of the Scott catalog pay more than a magazine image?
Getting away with something that is cheap and decent may well sum up where the market is right now. That was my point when I compared the Scott catalog to the Winston catalog. One was decent and one was excellent. Really fine photography combined with design adds value and drives sales. Thats why a photographer shouldn’t be shy about asking for reasonable compensation.
Zach–
At face value, it really doesn’t appear half bad. And I guess, when you think about it as you mentioned, Orvis probably could have offered much less.Keep in mind, however, that the cover usage could only be the tip of the iceberg. They have right to use the image whenever and however they please. You’re giving them unlimited rights for an unlimited period of time. I won’t claim the thousand upon thousand of dollars that X image would sell for with unlimited rights, cause companies simply won’t pay for that anymore (or at least no one in the fly fishing industry), but it’s still worth considering the rights you’re relinquishing for zero cash. Again, they’re suckering you in with cover usage and a gift certificate. The reality is that they are out essentially nothing, and can then use your image as they please.
Shooting a project for a day rate plus expenses is the way a lot of photography gets done. Then its just a negotiation for duration of usage etc worked out up front. I have seen some images in the Orvis catalog that were used in other companies materials. Most were by Val Atkinson which I would think were licensed for a specific use and period. He probably retains all rights to his images since he does some excellent coffee table books.
On the contest.
Adam and Zach both have valid points.In reality Orvis could pony up a lot less and still receive thousands of entries. So on that front it is a “reasonable” prize offering.
I myself don’t enter contest, probably never will because I’m with Adam. These days contest amount to little more than out and out *unlimited* rights grabs. For the “lucky” winner, its a reasonable deal.
For everyone else you are potentially giving the contest sponsor their next ad campaign posters, promo material, etc, etc, etc. now and in the future.
Would I ever sell the rights to an image out right, and for perpetuity?
Absolutely. But it’s going to cost the buyer dearly. The harder the image is to come by, the more absurd my asking price gets. The larger the “buyer” the more absurd my asking price gets, and so onThats true to Bob.
And more power to you, I’m not as bothered by the current “landscape” for photographers, as Im a Johnny come lately wannabe, whos working very hard at getting to the next level (s) 🙂 In some way Im “one of those guys” 🙂But I do emphasise with Photographers who have seen their livelyhoods kneecapped. Its all tied into the same threads/topics that get discussed from time to time. Even as a person whos “breaking in a bit” and whos “working at it”, I feel it all the time. I can only imagine what its like for adjusting to it, rather than entering at a time and with it. Ive had a good year, a couple covers probably over 20 images bought/published… I wont break even, not once I factor in all my expenses, including time.
People expecting things for “free”, rights grabs, copyright infringement (ive been a victim on small scales), and on and on and on. I cant tell you how often Ive been asked for material to be used in ads/promos/personal usage and they want it “free” and almost seem to be upset when I refuse and have on occasion explained or asked.
Whats your time worth to you?
There was a time when *contest* were about photography and artistry. Now they are rights grabs….and at the end of the day, its the industry that suffers…The writers, the photographers, etc,etc.
If orvis gets and keeps say 100 photos for *their* useage down the road. That useage will be to promote their product (make them money) and they pay roughly $10 (average cost base).
Thats a steal.
*************On the topic of contest.
Do it, judging is spotty at best and sometimes impossible to interpret and thats true of almost all contest. They really are a crap shoot sometimes.jeez, you folks are bigtime photographers, i just thought it would be kinda cool for an amateur pic-taker (and amateur flyfisher for that matter) like myself to see one of his/her pics on the cover of an Orvis catalog.
Not that I know what I’m talking about, but it seems the field of “professional” photographers seems a little crowded these days.
Not that I know what I’m talking about, but it seems the field of “professional” photographers seems a little crowded these days. In the past, professional photographers were full time and had a fortune invested in equipment. It looks like now there are a lot of part time professionals and the entry costs are much lower with the digital equipment.
Since demand is somewhat static, the oversupply of professional photographers can only drive down prices. That, combined with the ease of transferring photos over the internet and the poor economy, makes it a tough profession right now. I wish all you guys luck. I’m sure it is frustrating to those of you trying to make a buck.
Hit the nail on the head.
Most special interest photography is now a part time pursuit at best and a huge slice of it is now done as much for love as money and there’s nothing the full time pro’s can do about it except thank god that it’s not happening in lens design and medicine.
www.dsaphoto.com
A picture is thousand words that takes less than a second while a thousand words is a picture that takes a month.
I know this discussion has happened over and over and over again, but I do feel the need to weigh in. Bob and Jon have hit the nail on the head.
So many business’ are leveraging the general consumer for photography, and they are definitely not paying what it’s worth. Mostly because the general consumer is a.) excited to see anything they did in print, and b.) has NO idea what it’s worth.
One of the big ones who is doing this is REI – the ask members to submit photos (with the convenient “they own the world” clause) – and they using those for their 5×8 style postcard mailers. In the past, based on volume, a photo like that would likely be licensed for anywhere between $1k-$5k.
Catalog images are paid a few ways. One way is a day rate – you shoot for the day, and they own licensing rights to those images for a fixed period of time. Day rates vary, but usually start at a minimum of $2-3k.
David –
Not to argue with you, but when I read this my first thought was, hmm, that’s twice the rate any fly fishing magazine pays for its cover. I think Orvis could get away with this for a lot cheaper offer and probably still get some decent photos.
Zach
One other quick thing – what editorial pays and what corporations pay are two different worlds.
Jacob
This John Harrington has a great book on Photographic Business Practices
http://photobusinessforum.blogspot.com/Strange thread:))
Dan- enter away dude:))) hope you win:)))))
Why on earth would a regular Joe fly fisher with a great pic not enter for the chance to win some free gear. It’s a freakin promotional contest . This is not a new idea aimed at gutting the livelyhood of the freelance photographic community. Been happenning for ages.
There have been a pile of words posted around these issues raised in a number of threads and forums. What seems a bit obvious and equally obviously irreversable is that the market for freelance photographers has changed.
While internet access to a greater number of images from non-professional sources ( re- cheaper/more abundant widgets) has
I don’t think anyone is suggesting people not enter. Personally quite the opposite, contest are crap shoots and you could win. However I also think people should be aware of the “rights” issue’s and then they can make an informed decision for themselves.
deduct the cost of internet access /gas/road food/gear -from income – this year a couple of feature articles and covers in major magazines and I’m down a lot money playing at being a freelance photographer, tempered only by the fact my ego is boosted and I am having a lot of fun:))))
Which is why personally, I dont give the rights to my images away.
It is a lot of fun, I love doing it and money is one of the least motivators for me. However, I spend alot of *my* money and just as importantly *my* time *getting* the images publishers/corporations/people want and like to have for *their* use or gain.Thats worth someting, no matter what level you are or aspire to be at.
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